Some Thoughts About a Fleet Operations Blank Modding Platform.

[Adm_Z]

Ok, well i have noticed that alot of people don't like FO, not because of the coding, but because of the ships. I am just wondering on how many people would consider using it if it was a blank platform?

I was thinking...It wouldn't take much work for me to make a patcher that could get rid of all the ships, or replace them with stock models, and make a blank platform.

Would that be enough? How many would be interested? Are there any suggestions?

I am already in the process of writing detailed instructions on how to add ships to FO, and to utilize its features and UI. On top of this, there is a very large guide to modding in progress part of which will be by the FO devs themselves.

I really just need to know if it would actually be used, or if y'all just don't want to use FO at all. What do you think?

 

[thunderfoot]

As I said over in the other thread, I do not object to FO. What I object to is the fact it seems to be presented as the answer to everything. I spent ten weeks working up the original version of the Physics Project. It took a very long time to play test and then bug hunt and then adjust so the ships looked right when they moved. It still is not exactly where I want it. Next, I spent a long time setting it up so anyone with a minimal amount of modding experience could plug and play the thing with as few hassles as possible. I remember well showing a preview to someone over at the other A2 site. His response: "Nice, but FO is better." When I started on the BSG Half Race Mod, someone asked if I was going to do an FO version. I hadn't finished ten ships yet. This person then proceeded to tell me about how much easier and better my mod would be if it was FO based.

I do not dislike FO. I am not sitting here drinking Hatorade by the gallon and spewing vituperation at 900 words per minute. My username is not terrad..., oops, better not finish that one. But Honest to God, I get really, really, really tired of hearing how much better FO is than anything else. I already know this. If I use FO, I will become more attractive to the opposite sex. I will be taller and smarter. Suddenly, all the hair on my head will grow back. Thicker and more luxuriant than when I was a boy. My car will be faster. My children will be rich. World peace will be achieved at last. Lions will lie down with lambs and everyone will beat their swords into ploughshares. I just wish people could stop and really listen to themselves sometimes. It's like being surrounded by the Stepford Modders some days.

Paramount, Activision and Mad Doc have not made ANY new A2 discs in a very long time. The number of discs and players for this eleven year old game is growing smaller everyday. As far as I know none of the coding or anything else in FO will work with the Demo version of the game. ALL of the things I have done will. Not bragging here at all, I've checked. Nearly all of the new people who come to this Community have barely begun to scratch the surface of the terabytes of great material available here and elsewhere for this game. They look at some of the fancier ships or weapons and then think, "Wow! These guys are cool!" Then someone places them in close proximity to FO and they never look at anything else again. Please understand, I do not view this as a bad thing, just severely limiting.

I like A2. I still play Stock A2 with my LAN group on a regular basis.

I prefer A2 to FO​

So why is it the Stepford Modders view me as some sort of deviant with aberrant behavior tendencies whenever I express this opinion out loud? One of the reasons I am here at MSFC is because there are people here who also like A2. If MSFC is to become yet another vassal state to the FO Empire, then maybe I need to move on. I do not dislike FO or anyone remotely connected to it. But would someone amongst the FO people get the rest to please stop proselytizing and respect the rest of us? After all, you do not see me over on the FO Forums speaking about how much better A2 is than FO, now do you?

 

[Dan1025]

I really cannot add anything to what my good friend thunderfoot just said lol, I don't hate FO at all, I simply prefer A2. I've spent years working on both my own personal install and the various mods that I've released, I don't see why people have to look at a mod and say 'it'd be better in FO".

I like modding A2, I enjoy modding A2, and I see no reason why I should have to defend that to every person who thinks I should be off modding FO.

 

[Starfox1701]

What they said. FO is a good peice of work but I'm not done with A2 yet.

 

[kjc733]

I was thinking...It wouldn't take much work for me to make a patcher that could get rid of all the ships, or replace them with stock models, and make a blank platform.

Would that be enough? How many would be interested? Are there any suggestions?

I neither like nor dislike FO, I don't know it well enough. The reason I got into A2 was because of the mods, I saw the potential to make a game "exactly" as I wanted it. So I installed the game, had a look at the stock, and then proceeded to trawl through the mods to see what I liked/disliked. One of the ones I liked was FO, so I installed it (and was pleasently surprised at how easy it was), turned it on, and my pc keeled over and started to crawl. I therefore moved on.

That was several years ago. I now have a number of half built mods that I never get around to finishing. I know that FO is potentially a great platform for some of the due to its enhanced capabilities - but between work, house, Atlantis, various other hobbies, and now the half race mod, I have neither the time nor inclination to strip FO to the bones and rebuild it in the hope that I can do something useful with it.

Now if someone were to do that, then I may be inclined to have a play around with it, and may even build on it. So yeah, I'd be interested. Would I do anything with it, maybe. Would I release a mod - who knows, the Hlaf race mod is my first. If it's a steap learning curve then I'll probably write it off as a waste of time that I don't have, especially as I'm still learning how to do things with stock.

 

[Adm_Z]

So I guess that answers my question.

LOL and T-foot, Stepford modders. Its funny, cause there are only maybe 5 of us. Lets see...me, adm. tyler, TUN, apox., Ryder, and...leet gamer... thats pretty much all of us, so thats 6, but only a few of us actually release FO mods.

So, there are actually very few FO modders, and thats why we are eager to get others to take advantage of the platform. Its kinda lonely here in the cold of cyberspace.

The other sad thing is that we don't get many downloads. Because very few want to mod FO. our stuff isn't very popular.

But I"m not trying to get everyone to mod for FO. I was just asking if it would be easier for anyone trying FO if I did something like this, but if nobody is even interested, then thats fine. Less work for me.

It was just an idea.

Edit: oops, or Maybe I"ll just do it for kjc

 

[Majestic]

Thanks for posting this thread Adm_Z. While I love the features of Fleet Operations, there are a few things that don't take my fancy. First and foremost the high poly models. What are they thinking, FO is still built on the A2 engine and they have not edited the engine at all, only adding additional dll files. So it would still have the same restrictions, but then they thrown in like 6000 poly models.

I have an AMD Quad Core, 3.0GHz processor with a 1GB Memory card and even with this machine I have had lag issues with reasonable sized fleets.

Fleet Operations is also a pain to mod, I looked into the odf folder one day and say the jumble and the alarming fact that you need something like four odf's for a single ship. It put me right off. Plus all these need codes bits and pieces, there is no list that I have come across that describes them and what they do and where you can and can't use them. They need a FO BBOM in web-format like the FO Guide that has been developed to play the game.

Don't get me wrong, I like FO, playing it. They have done some amazing things. But I don't think I would mod it. I may try to port Yesteryears over to it one day, after the A2 version is finished, polished and sold over a 1000 copies. However they have technically abandoned the Patch Project which I'm not happy about. I mean the PP would benefit a great many people, but all they do is keep releasing releases for FO. I mean they don't even introduce addition sides any more, just enhance upon what is already there.

Sorry I don't mean to *****, I just am a little disheartened sometimes. I guess what I am saying, that while I like FO for an occasional play against the AI, I wouldn't mod it as it's too complex and many can't run it as it's requirements are over the top when compared to standard A2, or even a modded A2.

So I guess that answers my question.

But I"m not trying to get everyone to mod for FO. I was just asking if it would be easier for anyone trying FO if I did something like this, but if nobody is even interested, then thats fine. Less work for me.

It was just an idea.

Edit: oops, or Maybe I"ll just do it for kjc

I say if you want to do it, then you should. I am sure someone will take advantage of it. Even some of us down the road might.

 

[Adm_Z]

LOL ok, can I post a link to the FO guide? I actually wrote a big long introduction to modding FO. it is incomplete, and doesn't tell how to actually mod FO yet, but it does try to explain some of the newer features in FO. Additionally, Dominus has created a big section for new odf commands that he derived from apoclaydon, and odf templates for weapons and ships. There is even an explination for the new tooltips(which I don't fancy much, but it does help to understand them. My mod will not do it the way FO does it.) All this is in a new tab in the FO guide.

Maybe I will work on one, but just a little. If indeed you all will use it in time, then that is all it will take. Time.

 

[Starfox1701]

I don't a problem with that. Wouldn't even mind is that stuff found its way to SB 34.

 

[Majestic]

LOL ok, can I post a link to the FO guide?

I will allow it this one time, it's a one off. Only because I think it will benefit this topic and the members here in general.

 

[Adm_Z]

Ok, thanks Maj. I actually link to msfc on the resource page of my intro as well.

Here is a link to the modding section of the FO guide. the first page is the introduction I wrote, the rest are other pages useful for understanding FO features and modding it.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to Fleet Operations › Guide › Modding

I will work on completing my guide before I work on a blank FO base. That way, there will be a set of instructions, before you have the base and wonder what to do with it.

 

[Majestic]

I can see you've put a great deal of work into it already.

 

[Adm_Z]

Heh, not enough unfortunately. Its still far from complete, though I should be done with the explanation part. Unless anyone else can think of something else that needs explaining. If so let me know, and I'll add it in.

 

[Majestic]

Heh, not enough unfortunately. Its still far from complete, though I should be done with the explanation part. Unless anyone else can think of something else that needs explaining. If so let me know, and I'll add it in.

The Shell folder.

 

[Lord_Trekie]

Personally, I enjoy playing FO once in a while, I enjoy modding it once in a while, but for all the hype around it, in general I dislike their models, they look great at distance, but zoom in and all I want to do is gouge my eyes out. And oh yes, while the shuttles zooming around stations are a cool idea, I hate them, they distract my eyes far too much.

Bottom line, I enjoy it, but the likes of Dawn of War, Zero Hour, and Yesteryears are more likely to impress me.

 

[Adm_Z]

The Shell folder.

Hmm, I thought it was in the bitmaps folder but its not. Which shell folder are you talking about?

 

[StarBlade]

Not that anyone needs to hear from me on the subject, but....

FleetOps introduces too many changes, and to play the game is too divergent from stock. I happen to like stock A2 as it was. I could have played it that way for a very long time. What changed my mind was the fact that mods were readily available. While I love modding with pre-existing materials, fact is, there's nothing FleetOps brings to the table that I can't do my own way. I don't care if the engines glow or the resolution is higher or whatever. If I'm playing to win I'm not taking the time to admire the work that went into the model. And there's also some things FleetOps offers that I simply do not want, or like. I don't want to follow someone else's rules after doing it this way for seven years. And as I said, I don't mod in order to sit around making goo-goo eyes at my screen. My idea of A2 is Star Trek First Contact, not Star Trek The Motion Picture. My baby steps in modding were based on that idea-- things go boom. How can I make them boomier? Things look blocky. How can I make them blockier? While FleetOps surely has nice booms and less blocky effects, bottom line, there aren't enough plug-in mods that work to FleetOps' advantage in a way stock A2 mods don't.

There's also a certain honour I feel comes with modding A2. The game is old, broke and not getting any better or younger. But when placed in the hands of Jet or Dan or Chiletrek or Aad Moerman, tell me it isn't just as awesome. To say nothing of Freyr's AI or thunderfoot's physics work, or (to be perfectly honest) all the coding I did for the SB34 Federation compilation mod. To move over to FleetOps because it does fighters "better" or because it offers an experience-based upgrade system would be an admission of failure in my previous efforts to work around A2's ODF-based research-tree limitations. Same with a host of other things. I don't care if the fighters are built instead of launched. I don't care how experienced my crews are. I'm sending them to prevail, or die trying.

Even a blank FleetOps is a different beast altogether from the way I found it, and changed it. I wouldn't be averse to a section on Starbase 34 regarding the differences between FleetOps and A2, but I'd want it to be done right, and for it to make old die-hard A2 modders like me actually want to mod FleetOps for a change. FleetOps is the New Coke. Some people like it. Me, I prefer the classic flavour.

 

[Adm_Z]

I wouldn't be averse to a section on Starbase 34 regarding the differences between FleetOps and A2, but I'd want it to be done right, and for it to make old die-hard A2 modders like me actually want to mod FleetOps for a change. FleetOps is the New Coke. Some people like it. Me, I prefer the classic flavour.

What do you mean, 'done right'? Is what I have done not right?

Oh, and original coke had cocane in it, or if you go way back, alcohol. I think everyone liked it better.

 

[StarBlade]

What do you mean, 'done right'? Is what I have done not right?

Don't know, haven't looked at it. By "done right", I mean it'd have to be accessible to all, easily readable, and give people practical examples-- written in the same vein as the Big Book but without all the talky "ok now i tell you what to do with this variable" sort of stuff. I would be more than willing to incorporate a sort of "Total Newbie Guide" about FleetOps. We need more content on SB34 anyway, and I don't really have time to write it anymore. Especially on subjects where I know little to nothing, like FO.

EDIT to add: I went and looked at what you have, Adm_Z. I think it's fine just as it is-- to replicate the same thing on 34 seems redundant when you've done such a magnificent job with what you've got on FO as it is.

 

[Majestic]

Hmm, I thought it was in the bitmaps folder but its not. Which shell folder are you talking about?

It's next to the data folder mate, in the main directory.

 

[Adm_Z]

lol, I seriously don't see it. could you post a screenie?

strange...

 

[Majestic]

It was in your guide mate. You had a screenshot on that page. Posted here for ease.

Spoiler: Image

 

[Adm_Z]

Thats strange... Maybe it was just in an older version of FO. That pic was taken back in 3.0.7 so I guess maybe it has been gotten rid of? I will have to do more research.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

Thanks for posting this thread Adm_Z. While I love the features of Fleet Operations, there are a few things that don't take my fancy. First and foremost the high poly models. What are they thinking, FO is still built on the A2 engine and they have not edited the engine at all, only adding additional dll files. So it would still have the same restrictions, but then they thrown in like 6000 poly models. [...]

As I've stated before, that is not correct - the A2 graphics engine has been heavily enhanced, as have many other aspects of the engine (and no, what has been done is not against EULA). The lag you are experiencing is probably due to explosions (which has nothing to do with high poly), which will be fixed in one of the next patches (the software renderer is being replaced; unfortunately an ancient relic that is difficult to remove).

The enhancement is the reason why FO loads many times faster than A2, can handle much heavier coding demands, and can support a lot of subtle graphics stuff (like AA for instance). I have a computer that is much less enhanced than yours Majestic and can easily run everything at max with no issues asides from Borg explosions - that is a typical case for FO. Also, without the ships in it, as a basic modding platform FO has less system requirements. But alas, I stated that before as well.

However they have technically abandoned the Patch Project which I'm not happy about. I mean the PP would benefit a great many people, but all they do is keep releasing releases for FO. I mean they don't even introduce addition sides any more, just enhance upon what is already there.

The PP is quite difficult to keep maintaining as already explained - you can do much more with much less effort using FO as a modding base. A PP that would be up to date with the current FO would be FO. That is why FO is designed to have so many modding features - nothing is hard coded for that purpose.

As for the three remaining factions - those take time and the fact that the community asked for more features for the current factions means the devs have been taking the time to redo those factions and bring in stuff that is of singular importance to the SFU, but hadn't been included. I.E. market systems, home turf advantage, real heroes, honor, exploration, diplomacy, real map terrain, NPCs, real technology/ship trading, scriptable events etc. Working on improving and expanding current stuff is just as important as adding new factions. Quality and moddability first - a lot of what is needed to make those three unique factions functional as well.

I'm not certain what you mean by "needing 4 odf's for each ship" however. FO and A2 can be made to use the same number of ODFs per ship, if you don't want to use other features like replaceweapon/ranking stuff or many many weapons.

The FO modding guide replacement is still WiP by DOCa, but the current much smaller one contains as many FO specific ODF commands as several modders and myself could find and their explanations should be useful if you so wish to look at it.

From what I've seen on this site in just a few days it seems there is this ridiculous notion that "The FO Empire" (apparently) is trying to somehow vilify and erase the original game when it seems instead that all the slander is directed oppositely. Unfortunately sad that there is such a dream of "bringing back the community" that gets so easily waylaid by impressions, assumptions, and misinformation.

 

[Undying_Nephalim]

I was encouraged to get into some of the debates and talks on this website, so I guess I'll dive in and hopefully not cause explosions of doom.

Misinformation always leads to explosions, I guess I just feel I should point out a few things out. First off, I am not here to promote Fleet Ops as "A solution to everything." I am simply presenting information to clear up misconceptions in regards to hatred being shot at Fleet Ops. In regards to modding, Fleet Ops is just a tool to use, and some people prefer manual screwdrivers to electronic screwdrivers which is fine.

On the issue of polys:
- Fleet Ops models are not high poly at all, the largest one I've seen is maybe 3000-4000 poly (one of the Dominion stations). Most of the detail in that game is through the texture work and the way bump maps interact with lighting.

On the issue of modability:
- There is nothing different when it comes to modding A2 and FO, all the files work exactly the same and everything is generally handled in the same manner. All the folders are the same, the only difference is all odf's are put in the "system" folder to help load times move faster. The only other thing that I think is different is the addition of new command lines, but that's more of an addon.

General Hatred:
- It seems most of the general complaints in regards to FO are about the game itself rather then the engine. Honestly, if you want to mod then why should the base game get in the way? Just mod out what you don't like about the game like I do.

When modding I had a lot of issues I could not solve in A2 that Fleet Ops solved for me, so I naturally am somewhat biased in regards to FO being able to solve most modding problems. If you don't like the actual Fleet Ops game then that's fine and by all means please hate the actual game, there are some aspects of it I dislike as well. However, the dislike of the actual game should not warrant the same hatred for the engine that can be used to mod. Did I mention everything from A2 can be ported over to FO as well?

Please don't shoot me.

 

[Majestic]

Undying_Nephalim, we won't shoot, I lost the bullets. Just kidding everyone has an opinion that is respected by the staff and members here. Some like FO, some don't. It's a fact of life like everything.

Dominus_Noctis, I recall a Borg cube being something like 10,000 poly's or something. I could be mistaken as I am big enough to admit that I could be wrong in this aspect.

I do understand adding a full race takes time, but don't you think it would be better to add the new factions then later go back and add the new features to the existing factions requested by the community? One feature I would like to see more than the ones listed is the alliances option of Armada 1, where you can change alliances during game with the AI and other players. But I don't expect the team to do it just because I want to see it.

I have nothing against the FO team, or even the mod, as I know others whom have posted here are of like mind and have stated. I just don't like the game play of the mod or the lag. It lags when I have only the Romulan, Klingon, Fed and Dominion on the map. No Borg, as I don't particularly like them in RTS games. The explosions could be a cause of the lag as it seems to happen more when combat is happening. However it's still a real turn off considering the machine I am running and I can play other mods like Achilles AOW in full swing without any lag issue at all.

 

[Lord_Trekie]

Dominus_Noctis, I recall a Borg cube being something like 10,000 poly's or something. I could be mistaken as I am big enough to admit that I could be wrong in this aspect.

It is, I just imported it and checked, but as a general statement, yes, Dominus is correct in that most of the FO models are lower than 3/4000 polys.

For a couple comparisons the SF Command building is ~2k, while the Sovereign sits at about 2.75K, and the Intrepid, is astonishingly ~5.5K.

 

[thunderfoot]

No interest in shooting anyone here. As to "hatred", this far too strong a word to use for how some feel about FO. As you have stated yourself, some prefer a manual screwdriver. Count me as one of those. I think the FO mod and platform are fine pieces of work. It is obvious to anyone who mods A2 even a little a great deal of care and attention went into them. I can appreciate the effort and time it takes to put something like these together. But it is not something I am interested in using or playing. There is no hatred or hidden agenda here. Some people like Ferraris. Some people like Porches.

What I have always been concerned about is there seems to be an unspoken opinion no matter how good one of my mods is, because it isn't FO based, it is inferior or flawed somehow. This idea is not expressed out loud or rudely, but it is not hidden either. It has not ever been expressed by anyone on the FO Team or the admins at the FO site. But there has been more than one occasion where someone who enjoys and plays FO has been...slightly less than respectful towards my own work. I dislike this. I worked very hard on the Physics Project, the Improved Single Player Campaigns, the TOS Adversary Packs, and the BSG Half Race Mod v1.0. They are as good as I can make them. To have them compared unfavorably to FO by anyone upsets me. I would be just as upset were someone to compare FO unfavorably to my work. Because this isn't respectful towards anyone on the FO modding team.

The other thing which concerns me is people are always explaining to me about what FO is and is not. I have eyes and a brain. I can see and think. I generally prefer to do so for myself. FO has been around long enough and has enough people who do use it there is a solid body of evidence as to its pros and cons. It is not necessary to explain to me one more time what FO is and is not. I get it. I understand. I am happy there are those who use and enjoy it. But I am not one of those. Nor will I be anytime soon. Listening to yet another explanation will only encourage me to stay further away from it.

In summation, 'hatred' is far too strong a word to accurately express how I feel about FO. 'Indifference' is much more succinct. FO is nice. It has some wonderful features. It is obvious someone cared deeply enough about A2 to make a serious effort to improve the game and for the most part succeeded. I applaud and appreciate the effort this took. "Fatigue" accurately describes my feelings about people who speak about FO both to me in private and in a public forum such as this. If it really is so much better than regular A2, it should not be necessary to advertise and promote it as hard as some do. I only wish my Physics Project had as many rabidly loyal fans. So I suppose there is a tiny little bit of envy in there too. In the future I will try to control this envy because it is disrespectful towards the FO Team.

 

[Majestic]

I only wish my Physics Project had as many rabidly loyal fans. So I suppose there is a tiny little bit of envy in there too. In the future I will try to control this envy because it is disrespectful towards the FO Team.

Ow! I love your Physics Project, it a requirement of every install (except my stock one) and mod I do. I can be your Fan of Physics!

 

[thunderfoot]

Ow! I love your Physics Project, it a requirement of every install (except my stock one) and mod I do. I can be your Fan of Physics!

And there is the first one. If I can find two more, then I can start a movement, lol!