Classification of Starships

[Atlantis]

Here's my thoughts, based on the list in the first post.

Oberth - Doesn't count, technically it shouldn't be a StarFleet vessel, as it's a science-only ship, and StarFleet is a military organisation.

Nova - Frigate FF
Defiant - Destroyer Gunship DDG
Centaur - Light Destroyer DDL
Sabre - Heavy Frigate FFH
Miranda - Heavy Frigate FFH
Soyuz - Destroyer Carrier DDV
Norway - Destroyer DD
Excelsior - Light Cruiser CL
Intrepid - Light Scout Cruiser CLS
Steamrunner - Armoured (Heavy) Cruiser CA
Yeager - Auxiliary Light Cruiser (It seems more of a military transport than anything else) AxCL
New Orleans - Light Torpedo Cruiser CLT
Excelsior (Refit) - Advanced Light Cruiser (It's the same frame as the normal Excelsior, so it's going to have to be) CL+
Akira - Battle Cruiser/Carrier BCV
Nebula - Battle Cruiser BC
Ambassador - Heavy Cruiser CA
Galaxy - Command Cruiser CC
Sovereign - Dreadnought DN
Prometheus - Perimeter-Action Vessel PA

 

[Aerilon]

Well, whilst I can't give a detailed list of every ship avaliable, I can give people a list of the Federation starships I am using in Zero Hour, and the classifications I am giving them. If anything, it would give people an idea of how I'd class ships.

Achilles Class - Battleship
Akira Class - Heavy Cruiser
Ambassador Class - Exploration Vessel (I'd say Heavy Cruiser during the TMP-era)
Constellation Class - Corvette (I'd say Frigate during the TMP-era)
Constitution Class - Corvette
Defiant Class - Escort
Excelsior Class - Medium Cruiser
Galaxy Class - Exploration Vessel
Intrepid Class - Light Cruiser
Miranda Class - Corvette (I'd say Destroyer during the TMP-era)
Nebula Class - Survey Ship
Norway Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser
Sabre Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser
Sovereign Class - Exploration Vessel
Steamrunner Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser

I notice I've used "Exploration Vessel" a few times. These would be ships that aren't necessarily armed to the teeth, but are quite powerful, yet, at the same time, weren't really built for combat.

 

[Borg_Queen]

I may point out that the Sovereign is indeed built for combat as that class is one of the few that are built first and foremost to combat the Borg.

 

[Aerilon]

Well, within Zero Hour, she wasn't built for 'combat' but rather exploration. Don't worry, she wont be weak.

 

[StarBlade]

technically it shouldn't be a StarFleet vessel, as it's a science-only ship, and StarFleet is a military organisation.

I couldn't disagree more. Starfleet's very strength is its role as an exploratory body, NOT just a military organization. Theirs is a dual role, defense and science working together. It creates conflict, but it also creates unique opportunity. Starfleet isn't simply a "space navy". It has to be more than that, by design.

 

[Atlantis]

Then why are science vessels civilian?
The Tsiolkowski, for example, was not a StarFleet vessel.
And that woman Kirk brought back from 1986 (ST4), she joined a science vessel which was non-StarFleet.

I agree that StarFleet does take on a lot of science and exploration work as opposed to being JUST military. But it is primarily a military organisation. It has a military command structure, military technology, etc. All races incorporate science and exploration into their militaries, the Federation just does it more so to be "morally superior".

Either way, the Oberth IS just a science vessel, it has no military function (it can't even be used as ELINT support), and therefore can not have a military designation.
The only Oberth we saw which was being run by a StarFleet crew was the USS Grissom, on a joint mission with civilian scientists (much like the Reliant was)... and even that was only because it was a classified mission. Normal Oberths are run by civilian crews, not StarFleet.

 

[Borg_Queen]

One thing, Atlantis; Starfleet has naval command structure and naval technology, etc. Not military. In military the highest ranks are generals, while in naval (and Starfleet) it's the admirals.
Remember that Picard among others said that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, but a naval one.

 

[Wheller]

One thing, Atlantis; Starfleet has naval command structure and naval technology, etc. Not military. In military the highest ranks are generals, while in naval (and Starfleet) it's the admirals.
Remember that Picard among others said that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, but a naval one.

you forget that a navy IS part of a Military. David Marcus (James T. Kirks son.) even referred to starfleet as the military in the Wrath of Khan. While Starfleet is a Military organization, it is quite different then the military's of today.

Edit: i would also like to say that the Oberth Class, while a Science Vessel used by civilians, also happens to be a Scout craft used by Starfleet. the Oberth was built for use by Starfleet, but eventually found its way into the hands of Civilians.

 

[Borg_Queen]

you forget that a navy IS part of a Military. David Marcus (James T. Kirks son.) even referred to starfleet as the military in the Wrath of Khan. While Starfleet is a Military organization, it is quite different then the military's of today.

Edit: i would also like to say that the Oberth Class, while a Science Vessel used by civilians, also happens to be a Scout craft used by Starfleet. the Oberth was built for use by Starfleet, but eventually found its way into the hands of Civilians.

David is the only one that has called Starfleet for military. I even remember Archer yelling at the MACOs saying that Starfleet don't need any military organization as Starfleet is not military in nature, but naval. So, even if the Navy and the military is similar, they are also different.

IE. military is offensive in nature, navy is exploring and defensive only in nature. But if we shall discuss this further I recommend a new thread to avoid going off topic.

 

[Atlantis]

Well it's not really off-topic (though it would better suit it's own thread, I agree). It's about whether Starships can be given military designations, as much as anything.

I refer you to Wikipedia: Here
The very first sentence of this article states that the navy is a branch of the military.

What Borg_Queen describes as "the military" is actually "the army".

I do agree about what Archer said though, but it does confuse the issue a lot. =/

Back on topic though. Wheller, how can the Oberth be a Scout? It's almost never sent out on exploratory missions (Starfleet uses larger ships as explorers); in fact it's almost always sent to stars and phenomena which have already been charted, to study them. It's a survey vessel, not a scout.

 

[Wheller]

Memory Alpha refers to the Oberth Class as a Scout/science vessel/transport.

thats what i was going on.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Oberth_class

 

[StarBlade]

The only Oberth we saw which was being run by a StarFleet crew was the USS Grissom, on a joint mission with civilian scientists (much like the Reliant was)... and even that was only because it was a classified mission. Normal Oberths are run by civilian crews, not StarFleet.

What about the Pegasus? Admittedly the Pegasus was a testbed for illegal and top-secret phase cloaking technology but it still had a Starfleet crew. Other ships come to mind, like the Biko, Cochrane and other Oberths that were maybe just in the wrong place doing the wrong kind of research, or perhaps simply transferring crew or supplies. (VIP and ambassadorial transport tended to be reserved for Excelsiors and other such vessels.)

Not only that, but if Oberth class starships are so dispensible and non-Starfleet, how does that justify their designing and deploying Nova class starships to take over in the roles the Oberth class provided for Starfleet? Again, admittedly the Nova is leaps and bounds ahead of the Oberth, but the Oberth was in continuous use by Starfleet for (if you take the Grissom's registry literally) pretty much the entire existence of the United Federation of Planets.

Oberths could easily fill a hundred different roles, just like Mirandas and Nebulas, and even Excelsiors. I think it's abundantly clear that they have, and continue to do so, but that the design is licensed for equal use between civilian and Starfleet usage. Since there are apparently no onboard armaments of any kind, that's an easy choice to make.

But whatever it is, Oberths do serve a purpose, a Starfleet-operated scientific purpose at that. Just because the rank structures work in a military fashion doesn't imply a straight ****ysis one to another. We haven't seen enough, for all the Trek that's been filmed, to get a true sense of what the relationships are like between science and defense from an admiral's point of view. All we get are covert-ops cloak and dagger stuff and speculative-fantastical scientific applications.

Where I think the discussion breaks down is in the context of most games --A2, BC, Legacy, SFC and the like-- where the Oberth is, literally, useless unless specially armed. And since we know from STIII that the Grissom was unarmed, and thus defenseless against a few Klingon torpedoes, that tradition of obsolescence somehow has carried right on through to Wolf 359 (where one was among the wreckage-- poor devils) until probably the Dominion War. Any admiral ordering an Oberth class starship pretty much ANYWHERE has to know right away that they're of limited use tactically unless they're researching something planetside, in which case at least there'll be rocks on board to throw at an adversary. But for Starfleet to treat its crews as dispensible in any context doesn't make any sense given the heavy weight placed upon the loss of any ship in the storytelling.

Clearly they had some use, we just can't say for sure what it would be since our context is separate from Starfleet's.

 

[Borg_Queen]

One more thing about Oberths; We saw an Oberth with at least one phaser array in First Contact as it fired on the Cube with a phaser-beam.

 

[Atlantis]

the Pegasus was a testbed for illegal and top-secret phase cloaking technology

Exactly. The Oberth has a HUGE science lab slung underneath it, perfect for testing new technologies inside.

Other ships come to mind, like the Biko, Cochrane and other Oberths that were maybe just in the wrong place doing the wrong kind of research, or perhaps simply transferring crew or supplies. (VIP and ambassadorial transport tended to be reserved for Excelsiors and other such vessels.)

Well the Cochrane could well have been there to do research on various things in the Bajor sector. There's no evidence it was a StarFleet vessel.

The Biko... I can't remember.

The Vico and Tsiolkowski were definitely civilian-crewed, from what I remember.

The only times an Oberth has been definitely known to have a StarFleet crew were the USS Oberth and USS Yosemite... The Oberth was (for some reason) going to be in Operation Retrieve, and we saw guys in StarFleet uniforms being beamed from the Yosemite...

Don't misinterpret my use of the word "civilian". I am still talking Federation, just a different branch.

Not only that, but if Oberth class starships are so dispensible and non-Starfleet, how does that justify their designing and deploying Nova class starships to take over in the roles the Oberth class provided for Starfleet? Again, admittedly the Nova is leaps and bounds ahead of the Oberth, but the Oberth was in continuous use by Starfleet for (if you take the Grissom's registry literally) pretty much the entire existence of the United Federation of Planets.

Where's the evidence that the Nova does replace the Oberth? From what I've seen onscreen, it seems that the Nova is a scout ship / frigate. Fast, long-ranged, lightly-armed (but not unarmed). It is more designed to go ahead of fleets, searching and exploring.

One more thing about Oberths; We saw an Oberth with at least one phaser array in First Contact as it fired on the Cube with a phaser-beam.

We also saw the Millennium Falcon... see my point? =P

--

What I'm saying is that scientific missions are undertaken by the Federation Science Council, which is outside StarFleet (and in many ways, above StarFleet). For the Federation to work effectively, all these aspects of the Federation have to work well together, but they are most certainly NOT all one entity.

Could it be that Oberth-class ships are captained and crewed (minimal officers) by StarFleet, while most of the crew are civilian scientists? (compromise)

 

[Wheller]

The Biko was the ship with that kid who imitated Data, yes? Was there any evidence this was a Starfleet-crewed ship, and not a civilian science research mission?

Don't misinterpret my use of the word "civilian". I am still talking Federation, just a different branch.

Actually that Ship was the SS Vico. the USS Biko was a starfleet Supply ship

 

[Atlantis]

Damnit, you replied before I could edit to cover up my blunder =P

 

[Wheller]

Damnit, you replied before I could edit to cover up my blunder =P

of course, wouldn't want you to get away with it now would i ?

 

[Borg_Queen]

We also saw the Millennium Falcon... see my point? =P

Not exactly, I know we see the Millennium Falcon, but that doesn't mean that there are no Oberths firing at that Cube. Because there is one Oberth that does that.

I do not say the Oberth is Starfleet or not, I just point out that the Oberth is not unarmed, at least not the latest ones.

 

[Aerilon]

Chances are, the Oberth are actually a Starfleet ship, though Starfleet also builds them for civilian purposes too. Ultimately, she'd serve as a short range science ship, but still, I believe her to be a Starfleet vessel.

In regards to the Oberth having weapons, they probably do, though only Phasers. The Grissom probably didn't fire any as she was taken by surprise and didn't have chance to arm them. The Oberth in First Contact did however.

Other Oberth's has Starfleet personnel working on them. The Pegasus for example, was testing out that new Phase Cloak. It seems a little stupid that anyone would construct a ship without any weapons what so ever. Granted the Oberth is small, but I expect she has weapons, just not too many of them.

Even multiple freighters (Cardassian ones at least) have Disruptors. I know this was a modified vessel, but even so, if a Freighter of the Cardassian union is going to have weapons, then a science ship from Starfleet would sure have them. No?

 

[StarBlade]

Well the Cochrane could well have been there to do research on various things in the Bajor sector. There's no evidence it was a StarFleet vessel.

There's no evidence it wasn't, either. At this point, the problem with continuing this discussion is that you can say "yes" and I can say "no" and we go around in circles.

By the same token, using the Falcon's appearance in FC to disprove the existence of an Oberth very plainly firing its guns in anger brings us around to the same circling of "yes" and "no". And my source on the Nova being the Oberth's replacement is the Encyclopedia, although I've seen it elsewhere. You can dismiss that, too, if you'd like, but the fact remains we're not the only ones trying to figure out exactly why the Oberth is continuing its involvement in Starfleet's daily operations.

The real reason, underlying everything else, is that clearly the Grissom was expensive to build and expensive to replace, and there they were, week after week, running into Oberths all throughout TNG. We're bending observations and conjectures to meet our needs in both directions.

I like your compromise. No reason there couldn't be civilian scientists, maybe even ex-Starfleet, on a ship operated and engineered and captained by Starfleet. They could be strictly civilian, with merchant or even independent non-merch crews aboard. Appropriate training to operate the engines and shields and such could be offered to either, since the systems are ancient by TNG standards. (I use the term "Starfleet", for the record, to refer to Starfleet only. I don't use it interchangeably with the Federation, as some do.)

Ash's point is a valid one, though-- it's possible the Grissom *was* armed but didn't have time to power its weapons. It's hard to believe that Starfleet would put so much effort into, say, the Miranda class or Excelsior class, and their armaments, only to turn around and continue putting trained crews, and material investments, not to mention potentially sensitive experimental material, into unarmed tinkertoy starships just to watch 'em die.

And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Eisenhower]

I tend to view ship classes from the standpoint of firepower, ship armor and overall size, and then maybe speed. The Defiant is so unusual, really its in a class all its own since there is no comparable ship in any of the other star trek races. Size wise though the Dominion bug and Klingon bird of prey are pretty much the only ships the same size or slightly bigger than the defiant. Starfleet basically took the weapons,engines, and armor of a battlecruiser and put it into the body of a destroyer. It would be like if the Klingons put Vorcha class weaponary and armor on a bird prey. Gul Dukat once called the Defiant, a ship smaller than a miranda, the most heavily armed warship in the Quadrant which when you think about it probably is. The defiant had more **** firepower than a Galaxy class starship for crying out loud! pulse phasers, regular phaser, photon and quantum torpedos, and don't forget the ablative armor so it can fight with its shields down. That's more firepower than any other federation ship except a sovereign or maybe a Prometheus.

Any way back to classification. I tend to view dreadnoughts as ships that focus entirely on size, firepower and armor over speed and maneuverability. The Dominion Dreadnought is the quintessential ship of this class to me. This ship is **** near a mobile space station when it comes to just pure size alone. And its this reason that the Galaxy class doesn't hold up under this definition as it focuses more on speed and maneuverability than pure firepower ,and even armor wise the Galaxy class has always appeared to me as having a "glass jaw". I would define ships like the Galaxy refit, Excelsior refit, Sovereign, and Prometheus as battlecruisers. Ships that have a balance of both weapons and speed.

 

[Majestic]

I personally nowadays go by the hull and purpose of a vessel. So the size and what it's meant to do such as a support, patrol, carrier etc.

I mainly go by Naval standards and terminology and hence from smallest to largest:

• Corvette
• Frigate
• Destroyer
• Cruiser
• Battlecruiser
• Battleship|Dreadnought

 

[Eisenhower]

I personally nowadays go by the hull and purpose of a vessel. So the size and what it's meant to do such as a support, patrol, carrier etc.

I mainly go by Naval standards and terminology and hence from smallest to largest:

• Corvette
• Frigate
• Destroyer
• Cruiser
• Battlecruiser
• Battleship|Dreadnought

Where does the Defiant fit in that classification?

 

[Majestic]

Where does the Defiant fit in that classification?

I always put her as a destroyer.

 

[Starfox1701]

I'd say heavy gunnship but that is just me

 

[Majestic]

Everyone has their own spot for many ships, the Defiant is the best example of it. I think she is way over-powered but then again so was Voyager, whom was classified as a light cruiser. A gun-ship is a very good classification for her and in fact that was what I was going to use her for if I made a Federation side to COE, but I doubt that will be happening now.

 

[Eisenhower]

I think she is way over-powered but then again so was Voyager, whom was classified as a light cruiser.

Voyager was ridiculously over powered compared to any other ship! lol But with the Defiant it actually makes sense since its supposed to be a badass Federation warship. Makes it kinda difficult to create a reasonable, balanced build of the ship in armada though. In contrast, I've always felt the Galaxy class was horribly underpowered in TNG/DS9. The federation flagship destroyed by a outdated bird of prey, I mean really, this is the best the writers could come up with! The Enterprise C on the other hand was taken down by 4 Romulan Warbirds!

 

[SciFiFan]

For me it depends on the time frame. In Kirks time, the Excelsior would be a battlecruiser as the Constitution was a Heavy Cruiser. In Picard's time, it would be a light to medium cruiser and one of the Duras sisters refered to the Enterprise as " a Galaxy Class battle cruiser" in Generations.

 

[Eisenhower]

For me it depends on the time frame

I guess that's important to note too, cause in Wrath of Khan a constitution class ship was getting wrecked by a Miranda which is now considered cannon fodder.

 

[Hellkite]

"She may have flaws, but she has teeth"

- Benjamin Sisko,



She is overpowered officially designated an escort, although unofficially a warship, in other words she is a Frigate with the armaments of a medium cruiser

The Defiant-class was specifically designed to counter the Borg. Soon after the first vessel was completed however several design flaws caused Starfleet to suspend the project. Among the flaws was the fact that the Defiant's engines were overpowered relative to the size of the ship – so much so that the Defiant nearly "tore itself apart" during its shakedown cruise