Armada 2 and Fleet Operations

[Majestic]

After some thought and input from another community Administrator I've decided to create this thread and continue the discussion from Adm_Z's thread.

However I want to make it clear that is a general discussion about the pros and cons of each and what you prefer and why. This isn't meant to be a dispute about which one is overall better, as both are separate entities and both have their ups and drawbacks.

The staff and I will be monitoring this thread extensively, and if anyone starts to use this as a medium to attack Fleet Operations or Standard A2 and it's various modifications be warned, you'll have your posts deleted and could find yourself getting a nice level 1 warning out of it.

Hard simple facts people about your experiences with both sides of the discussion, leave the emotions and such at the door. If you can't do that, don't post here or you'll find yourself in strife.

Now lets continue in a civilised manner shall we.

 

[dinosaurJR]

Hmmm - which do I prefer...? Thats a toughy... I have played a recent version of FO (the first one to have the Avatars and such...) and I enjoyed it - although I though it a little slow paced...

I did play rather well though and I though the new GUI and the extensive bump mapping lifted the look of the game a few notches - much more modern.

As for modding FO - I have no experience and so have no comments...

For me, it helps to think of FO and A2 as two different games... Kinda like Left4Dead and Left4Dead2 - both closely related (one heavily based on the other) each having their own flavor (seriously play L4D and L4D2 back to back, you'll see what I mean...) and each backed by their own die hard fans...

As I said, I have never even looked into modding FO - although now I think I might, but nothing I have done so far matches the satisfaction and sense of achievement of modding A2... Especially modeling and adding your own ships...

 

[Terra_Inc]

I'm not a FlOps hater/lover. FlOps is just like any other "newer" or "better" game: If you mod it, you can put more cool stuff in it, but it'll cost you more work. Me, I prefer the simplicity of A2. But if I needed FlOps' features for something, I would at least think about it.

 

[Dan1025]

I'm not a FlOps hater/lover. FlOps is just like any other "newer" or "better" game: If you mod it, you can put more cool stuff in it, but it'll cost you more work. Me, I prefer the simplicity of A2. But if I needed FlOps' features for something, I would at least think about it.

Ditto. I've always thought of FleetOps as something of a seperate game, pretty much as close as we're gonna get to Armada3 in terms of professional workmanship and added features & content. I have nothing but admiration and respect for the work the development team has done, and for them as people.

I have zero experience modding FleetOps, I've played it several times and enjoyed it, I have the latest version along with a version containing the Sigma mod released for it. I've allowed quite a few of my mods to be ported to FleetOps and released on the mods site/forum.

But even with all that, something keeps me coming back to regular A2. I've spent a very long time and a great deal of effort creating and releasing mods as well as working on my own install, so maybe it's just sentiment, I don't know.

Like Terra says, if I one day got an idea for a mod that I could not make work with the features of normal A2, then I'd give serious thought to using FleetOps as the base for it. It hasn't happened yet, but who knows.

Like Majestic says, both A2 and FO have their own pros and cons, but it's still all one community, we're all still under the 'A2 umbrella' if you will, so I don't think we need to draw a line between fans of FO and fans of A2. There are not enough modders left in this community for us to be taking sides over something like this. I like both games, I mod A2 because it's how I started and I find it enjoyable, basically - I mod what I know

Well I said a lot more than I intended when I started there but ah well, with luck some of it made sense

 

[Starfox1701]

This is like trying to compair Chicago deep dish pizza to New York style pizza. While they kinda look alike they are really 2 different beast. And for the record it is not haterade to say I don't enjoy FO as much as I do A2. Over the last 10 years I have developed a particular style of play I enjoy. FO went in another direction. This is not a critisium; it is a statment of fact. In fact the only real negative I have ever really encountered in conection to FO has nothing to do the Devs or the game. It is the tendency for ceirtain members of the FO community to be overzealous in there attempts to protect and promote this mod. I give FO but I give these peoples behavior

 

[Adm_Z]

Oh yeah? Well I give everyone a


I am Biased and everyone already knows my opinion. Thats all I will say.

 

[Starfox1701]

I am Biased and everyone already knows my opinion. Thats all I will say.

You have never in my experiace been guilty of the conduct of which I speak. While we all know you prefer FO you never dis A2 and are quit capable of having a rational discusion of your and others likes and dislikes on the subjuct. What I'm saying is that there are others in the FO community who can't seam to do that. Everything turns into an argument over whos game would win a fight on the playground over by the swings. This gets on my nerves and more then anything else.

 

[Adm_Z]

Thanks. But hey man, don't dis my buddys! I am guilty of the same as the rest of the FO community. I prefer FO to a2 most days, and will push to get others to do the same if I can. I, though I don't speak out as actively as some of my friends, support my fellow Floppers views...most of the time. The truth is, that we are trying to build two separate communities, and then argue which one is better. The new small one, or the older, stronger one. This is wrong. Its like you said. We are all one big community, and we shouldn't fight amongst ourselves about Screwdrivers, Coke, Pizza, or Armada.


But now I have said more than I intended.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

I'm not sure where this stuff about competition came from; I think it's simply about opening doors.

The A2 engine - all iterations of it - is not really a modder-friendly system. Quite a lot of stuff is hard coded, you have to edit tons of files if you want to have any appreciable amount of ships and factions, and a lot of stuff is non-intuitive and/or prone to simple errors.

The Patch Project was originally designed to enhance that system - trying to make things less hard coded and adding in new commands as they were in FO.

With the realization that it would take ever increasing effort to try and make the PP backward compatible and yet never be able to have all the commands of FO (not to mention really any of the engine improvements, attention was turned to making FO more and more modder friendly. Although a lot of commands were rendered non-hard coded (and others expanded, and still more commands added) on top of improvements for the sound, graphics engines and render the same basic problem exists. A2 is unfriendly - you have to mod a ton of files to get changes to units (take ranking for instance).

Thus comes the inexorable climb to releasing FOscript, which is a set of interrelated automated programs which automatically compile the odfs, dynamic localized strings - the whole installation really. What that means is that if you want a weapon to do 30% less damage to certain classes of ships, you merely have to specify that class in your string, the damage reduction, etc and it will compile the odfs appropriately. No more hand-editing 1k+ of odfs if you so wish it. Same thing with tooltips etc.

So basically modding A2 and FO aren't different at all. You can have exactly the same stuff that you want in FO as you had in A2, because everything that is in A2 (and some of what is in A1) works in FO (or will in the next patch).

For FO, you just get more options if you run up against brick walls, and of course there are more intuitive (and efficient - both in physical coding, as well as how it uses the computer's memory) solutions to making certain weapons. Lastly (and probably most importantly) there is admin support, so if you want a weapon type added, or more features for an existing weapon (take the Point Defense Laser for instance) you can ask and receive them.

There is no shame in moving to an improved engine - FO certainly isn't harder to mod than A2 if you want to use just the features A2 had. I noticed that an attitude similar to, "oh yeah? Well I modded on A2 FIRST, while you had easy peezy FO!" has revealed itself, but isn't the point of modding to enjoy yourself and to release something other people can enjoy? That's what the enhanced A2 engine was designed to do - the original goal of the PP, which it seems many people use and enjoy.

I'm wondering the same thing asked by Zaxxon in the other thread: does the reluctance to mod using FO come from the inclusion of the game, or from the lack of 'backwards compatibility'? If it is the former, I bet that the FO devs would be willing to compile a "clean slate" FO for use for modders who do not wish to remove the files manually. If anybody could answer that question, it would be most welcome.

 

[Adm_Z]

but on the other thread. I actually haden't thought about asking the devs about that, but then again we aren't all as friendly with the devs as you are. not that we couldn't be, just that we aren't.

As to the competition, well it is kinda a self perpetuated thing that happens when people make mods, and groups of people seem to vote for one over the other, say one needs the other, ect. It just happens.

But are you serious that the devs are gonna release their script?!?

In that case modding FO will get easier than modding a2, unless of course you use a similar tool for a2 already. I am one of those guys who takes pride in writing my own odfs, but if the devs release their personal odf writing tools, then I might have to change that opinion.

Not sure if we are still on topic though, so...yeah...thats one more pro for FO.(rhyme not intended)

 

[StarBlade]

I'm sure there are those in the FO community who feel that those of us in THIS side of the community are overzealous in our preservation of the original version of A2 (with the 1.1 patch). It sounds, from what I read Dominus_Noctis say in the other thread, like the 1.2.5 patch was intended as a compromise, but was met with a divided response. That is, however, the thrust of most human endeavours. Those who say "too much! REVERSE the changes!" will always be around, as will those who say "not enough! DO MORE!". Psychological inertia will always be the greatest enemy of innovation, second only to those who criticize what they never had the temerity to do themselves. The more I see of modding, the more of this sort of thing I see, it seems.

But let me explain my feelings on FO by comparing them to another ground-breaking (though not code-breaking) mod, which in its day was mod of choice: Borg Incursion. There were those, for a long time, who insisted that every mod had to match up to BI (and BIVR, then BICS, then BI2, then almost BI3, and now maybe again BI3). There were those who didn't like BI in terms of its gameplay, so they harvested the models and learned a lot about .ODF balance along the way --this was, incidentally, my introduction to the community. I loved the models, loved the variety, loved the adversaries and loved the map objects. But I hated the fact that it took 297 seconds to build anything that could really threaten anything else. And the fact that there seemed to be no chance of winning when I couldn't decide what to build before twelve or fourteen enemy ships took my base out.

My point here is that with any different mod, there is a certain "comfort zone" that one either has or doesn't have with the mod. If you have it, chances are you want everything to conform to the new way of thinking. If you don't, chances are you would simply ignore anything that conforms to the new way of thinking. And if you're a "maybe" on the whole thing, maybe you spend some time with the mod, but go back to what you were doing before.

I stopped following anyone else's idea of what I should do in my game a long time ago. FO has a lot of new stuff --the list Dominus_Noctis shared with us included experience systems, multi-race shielding, individual commanders, economic systems, diplomatic systems, among other things-- and I don't necessarily want those things in my game. All I want is an AI that does something OTHER than charge directly for my base every single freaking time, a series of delightfully challenging enemy vessels and stations to conquer or destroy, and a really pretty backdrop against which to do all that. Anything else is micromanagement that I don't have time for when I play A2.

And I think that's where FO sort of falls short for me. I also have played Homeworld and Freespace and Sins of a Solar Empire, Legacy and Bridge Commander and Starcraft, Masters of Orion and Spore and SW: Empire At War--- so very many games, all with one common theme: they're set in space. Just because A2 can't do some of the things those games can doesn't necessarily mean that I want my A2 to do those things, too. Sure, I'd love to fly fighters and give trade a bigger role, make and break alliances in Instant Action mode, stare in jaw-dropped mode at the details and curves of the latest Federation starship mod. But A2 doesn't have to do it all.

In summary, just because I mod A2 doesn't mean I'm in some sort of exclusive relationship with one set of code and one game disc. Yeah, it's been darn near that for the past seven or eight years, but it's my hobby, not my wife. That being said, however, it's comfortable to come back to, and it's a lot easier to mod than anything else I've tried to mod.

FO promises much, and the work that's been done is already most impressive. I wish I had the patience to truly appreciate it. But for me, it's just another mod --like Future Wars or Art of War or the aforementioned Borg Incursion-- from which I'll take what I want and leave the rest.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

but on the other thread.
[...]

But are you serious that the devs are gonna release their script?!?

In that case modding FO will get easier than modding a2, unless of course you use a similar tool for a2 already. I am one of those guys who takes pride in writing my own odfs, but if the devs release their personal odf writing tools, then I might have to change that opinion.

Not sure if we are still on topic though, so...yeah...thats one more pro for FO.(rhyme not intended)

Not sure if friendly has to do with it as it is just a simple request

Yup, the tools have been planned to be released for quite some time now, but that time is drawing ever nearer (and a little pushing behind the scenes does some good too I suppose ) . The problem always was making those tools understandable and providing the correct documentation for any modder to use. Once the faction redoes out of the way, there will be plenty more time to work on those.

It sounds, from what I read Dominus_Noctis say in the other thread, like the 1.2.5 patch was intended as a compromise, but was met with a divided response. [...]

I didn't think I had implied that at all . The PP always was just a way of trying to give modders as many tools as possible. The reason it was put on hold is that it became too difficult to make the FO functions backwards compatible.

[...]And I think that's where FO sort of falls short for me. I also have played Homeworld and Freespace and Sins of a Solar Empire, Legacy and Bridge Commander and Starcraft, Masters of Orion and Spore and SW: Empire At War--- so very many games, all with one common theme: they're set in space. Just because A2 can't do some of the things those games can doesn't necessarily mean that I want my A2 to do those things, too. Sure, I'd love to fly fighters and give trade a bigger role, make and break alliances in Instant Action mode, stare in jaw-dropped mode at the details and curves of the latest Federation starship mod. But A2 doesn't have to do it all. [...]

Ah, but that's the beauty of it - you can pick and choose what you want . No one is forcing you to add new economic stuff etc (unless you have a large community clamoring for it). If you want a better AI and graphics and that's it, so be it. However, you can of course give other people the ability to mod your mod in unexpected ways (or you can go back and add new stuff as you see fit).

 

[StarBlade]

does the reluctance to mod using FO come from the inclusion of the game, or from the lack of 'backwards compatibility'? If it is the former, I bet that the FO devs would be willing to compile a "clean slate" FO for use for modders who do not wish to remove the files manually. If anybody could answer that question, it would be most welcome.

What you quickly describe as being "easy peezy" to one is new and complicated and scary to others. After all, don't ever forget that the average A2 modder in this community has devoted an amount of time out of their lives that can be measured in full months, if not years, of effort when processed consecutively.

For some it's a matter of taste-- you have this and that? Well, that's great, but I don't need it, and I like the way I have things set up now in my A2.

For some it's certainly the veterans looking askance at what they don't know-- FO has this and that, ooh, fancy. Gimme what I know.

For some it's probably just that they don't have the time, or the interest, to learn how to use FO as a modding system. I know that's how I feel.

And for some there's probably a prejudice based on their perception of the community's representatives --"one of those FO fanboys", that sort of thing.

Either way, the reason that FO becomes such a lightning rod among A2 community members is precisely because it offers a distinct, new way of playing. It's not a total conversion, as Dan mentioned above-- it's a different game. Some would say "improved", others might call it "extensively modified", but all would agree that it's distinct and that it holds a unique place in the community because of the code-level changes. It's the only mod in the community that offers that, and this too breeds resentment. After all, it changes some of the fundamental rules of A2 modding. The "hard-coded" reasons for not being able to make certain changes apparently are always being reduced in number by the FO team. That's commendable. But it's also a question of what people want.

I know, speaking for myself, that I don't want all those changes, as I said above, just because they're changes. I've accepted the limitations of the system, and worked within them, with results that have been both immensely rewarding and intensely frustrating (sometimes at the same time!). I'm not interested in the rewriting of A2 to do whatever the FO team would seem to think it should do. Because there's a slippery slope to that-- where does it end? Do you get into realistic planetary models? Do you stop at six kinds of every stock special weapon? Do you work on certain races but not others? Do you include certain resources and not others?

And when I think about it, part of why I don't like FO is because there's too much waiting involved. The FO team will make changes in subsequent versions that will rock the A2 community and truly make the game everything that everyone wants. Eventually. Years from now. I have no doubt that Doca Cola and the FO team will, sooner or later, make a game that's so radically distinct that there WILL, in fact, be no reason to play anything else. But that could be ten years from now for all I know. And then I'm depending on someone else to not only bring me into the loop, keep me updated, keep me waiting.... and who's to say I won't be disappointed I waited? Especially not when I could've done the same thing my own way --which might not have re-coded or re-built the game but still works well enough for me-- in the interim?

I'm not really sure this answers your question. All I know is, my reluctance to mod FO is because I don't need FO to mod. If I want to mod, I'll pick up where I left off last time. I shudder at the thought of doing another cold re-install. Doing so in a blank FO engine holds zero appeal for the same reason, no matter the reward.

 

[Adm_Z]

All I want is an AI that does something OTHER than charge directly for my base every single freaking time, a series of delightfully challenging enemy vessels and stations to conquer or destroy, and a really pretty backdrop against which to do all that. Anything else is micromanagement that I don't have time for when I play A2.

Lol, I see why you aren't fond of FO. It is all micromanagement.

As to your aspirations of a good mod...I can do that. Not meaning to brag now, not at all what I meant, but there are so many new things like MMM that have spawn from FO that could help acompolish things like that. So...FO has improved AI. I could use that, merge it with a much simpler mod without all the micro, but more eye-candy like fighters. Make big booms that won't lag, and big ships that aren't high poly, and on top of that, use MMM to make a mission out of it. Yep, There are new mods that have been started that will allow you to make full campaigns, ect. So, if you can literally script what your enemy will do...well it won't be challenging for the maker, but you could make it challenging for everyone else.

And like I said, the AI in FO(though it still cheats) is much smarter(while still being very dumb).


I supose my point is that all this stuff is possible in FO, and you don't have to give anything up to use it. Alll odfs will still work(in the next patch) and the only things you will have to watch out for is the updated lines, which are rare. But again this is not about modding FO I guess. I just don;t see the Modding Con's of FO or how its harder than regular a2. There is just more to mod, not harder to mod, just more features.


Edit:

But now I am starting to see a common theme. FO is considered a new game. Like a3 as some have said. You could say its like comparing legacy to a2. They both have problems in stock, and both use odf's but neither are better in regards to modding, and they have completely different gameplay. I guess FO is considered the same. I disagree, because you can still make Fo however you like it, but I think I understand now.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

The big issue with comparing FO to the difference between A2 and Legacy, or even A1 with A2, is that unlike in Legacy (or in A2) you cannot remake the "predecessor" . Yes, A2 is more similar to A1 then Legacy is to A2, but the common issue remains. Coding changes, features become removed. With FO as a modding base you can use all the same features of A2 with the same effects - or you can use the improved functionalities too. It's only "harder" if you try to use all the new stuff (though that's a matter of choice - not a base "hardness").

 

[Adm_Z]

Hehm thats true. I confess that I sometimes avoid new features like ranking and tooltips because it it harder. But the truth is, that it isn't any harder, its just more work. But as you said, you don't have to use allthe new features, just the ones you like. That is, of course why I suggested that mod, so that it would be easier to only use what you want.

I hope we aren't off topic again...

 

[StarBlade]

Lol, I see why you aren't fond of FO. It is all micromanagement.

The few times I have played FO --and yes, they are few-- I felt like I should be writing things down in order to understand them. This is not my idea of a good time.

I have to be honest with you: it all sounds like up-selling to me. You know what I mean? "That old mop isn't any good, it's old and dirty, so use this wet-mop with a system you need to buy exclusively from us", that sort of thing. The very premise of FO's existence is that A2's moddability is broken-- and that they're fixing it. I would dispute this premise.

Yeah, okay, A2 was released in a half-hearted, ham-fisted and sometimes heart-breaking condition. But that was what made me want to mod it in the first place! It was like a sick little puppy I found following me home one day. So I took him in, fed him well, taught him some rules, got his coat groomed and took him to the vet. Now he's a good boy! A very good boy! Arent'cha, A2-- sit! roll over! speak! GOOD boy!

So, to follow the comparison, let me borrow something you said:

I just don;t see the Modding Con's of FO or how its harder than regular a2. There is just more to mod, not harder to mod, just more features.

Not harder to care for, just more things to be aware of, very similar, but also different. So, that sick little puppy becomes a cat. That explains why I don't mod FO. I frakkin' HATE cats.

EDIT to add: Legacy is neither cat nor dog. It's more like a rabbit: it doesn't do much of anything like the other pets, and you can't really do anything with it. At least, that's been my experience....

 

[Adm_Z]

Well, you can make a pelt out of a rabbit, and I have herd they make good stew, but much like legacy, you have to kill them first to make them of any good use. Until then, it isn't worth the $20 i payed for it in box. A good mod in that case would be like killing it because its completely different.





I just realized!! The reason many people mod for Legacy is because, though they do similar things that FO does, meaning they completely change the game, there are many different mods that do it.

It seems that FO is considered a Monopoly on modding. There is only one, and its huge, and it only supports a certain peoples gameplay likeness. Its like everyone else who doesn't bye into the monopoly is left out.

My perspective of course is that we are the stockholders, and we are the voters of our own mods, and we can do whatever we please with it. If thats not your cup of soup then, oh well.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

I have to be honest with you: it all sounds like up-selling to me. You know what I mean? "That old mop isn't any good, it's old and dirty, so use this wet-mop with a system you need to buy exclusively from us", that sort of thing. The very premise of FO's existence is that A2's moddability is broken-- and that they're fixing it. I would dispute this premise.

If that's the premise and the reason then, why doesn't anybody mod A2 without anything. That's right, no patch 1.1, no map editor - just the basic "what shipped" A2. The Maddoc/Activision team knew they didn't release something that was highly moddable - they hard coded so much of the game and made other parts redundant and counter intuitive probably in the efforts of time, money etc. The usual suspects from a gaming company.

Nobody is telling you to "buy FleetOps" (heck, you can't - nor would the devs want to ever sell it or anything associated with it). It's just about providing more tools - like that oft promised (but never delivered) A2 mission toolkit from Maddoc. Activision developed and abandoned A2 very quickly - for it to live into the next generations of computers and modders it does need to continue getting new features, otherwise it'll just become completely obsolete, sadly along with any mods created for it. You'd be better off making an analogy that "FO takes your old mop for free, patches it up, lets it become non-drip and other features - and what's best of all, FO will give you a life time guarantee with free customer support and ensure that it will always work while letting you choose if you want to use the old mop, and/or the new features".

As you might be able to tell, I'm more for having people shift to FO not because "I want" to force them to use the added features - but to improve the longevity of their original mods (which is another reason so many people use the PP, is it not? ).

 

[StarBlade]

If that's the premise and the reason then, why doesn't anybody mod A2 without anything. That's right, no patch 1.1, no map editor - just the basic "what shipped" A2. The Maddoc/Activision team knew they didn't release something that was highly moddable - they hard coded so much of the game and made other parts redundant and counter intuitive probably in the efforts of time, money etc. The usual suspects from a gaming company.

I hope you didn't intend for that to read as a flippant, backhanded statement, because it sure did read like one. If this was a sales job you were trying to do, I'd be speaking to your manager about it. Nobody's addressed me in this community in the way you've done in years, and I am not appreciative in the slightest.

I have found A2 to be very modder-friendly, with everything clearly and plainly displayed so I can follow it and learn how to use it. That's a far cry from a lot of games I have tried, and failed, to mod precisely because there was some sort of additional software or suite of programs required in order for me to get into the game. WordPad and a good .TGA editor gets me 90% of what I want to do in A2. I have never, ever encountered that simplicity of modding --such a pleasure to mod a game-- in anything that wasn't open source. And the work of this mod community still goes on in large part because of that highly flexible game engine. It's still moddable without a kit or suite of separate programs. That's the best part about it.

And perhaps you can explain your concept of "longevity" and "obsolescence" to me, because I don't think we can ask much more of a ten year old game engine. I'm not playing A2 because it's the new thing, I'm playing it --and modding it-- because it's a game with a core subject I like, with a programming and coding language I can easily understand. If there was an Armada III done right I'd probably still mod A2. I don't need an unofficial patch to mod it, either. And I can run it on any Windows operating system I encounter-- should the day ever come when it won't run, if I'm still interested, I'll find a DOS emulator if I have to in order to run it. The whole concept of modding is itself an extension in the life of the game, making it more fun in new and exciting ways for years to come. We're still modding this game --if that's not the definition of longevity, well.... even if some day there are no more new mods to be had, and the sites are all gone, there will still be people modding A2, with or without Fleet Operations.

The two biggest factors preventing more community members from joining up is that the play discs are prohibitively expensive, and there aren't any plans to distribute them again. Add to that the fact that PC gaming is no longer as lucrative as console gaming, and that games which one can plug into Facebook or other social networks are the likely "cash cows" for future gaming companies, rather than CD-based single-purchase games. We won't see another game like Armada, probably ever, and while you and I might both wish it was otherwise, Fleet Operations is not the only way forward for A2 modding. You might think so, but I disagree. And we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I'm more convinced now that I don't need FO to enjoy A2 than I was before, and I thank you for the clarification.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

It's your prerogative to read into my remarks as you choose, but I do know what I meant and I don't particularly enjoy seeing my words twisted. To clarify, my remark merely is to be read as it was stated: A2 was not released with a patch, but nobody (well, I could be wrong about that) mods it without that patch. The gaming company gave up on A2 rapidly, and it is up to the community to move it forward because they have inherited that responsibility. There is no "right way to mod".

When I refer to A2 becoming obsolete, I sadly refer to its many compatibility issues among many other things. I don't believe that A2 has to go that way, but the proof is in the pudding. If you can run it, that's great - but the way forward in a community is to ensure that the platform is available and usable for the vast quantity of people. I'm not too concerned with play disks being available really, as pirating alleviates that in some ways. If I check the stats of the guide, I find that about 8% of visitors came from China a month back, and I can guess that the majority of those gamers didn't buy a real copy. Same in South America really.

Not particularly sure what you mean "we won't see a game like A2, probably ever" I'm afraid.

Also unsure of what you mean "I don't need FO to enjoy A2 than I was before". If you don't wish to mod FO, that's your choice. No problem there as I see it - the only issue is slander. Not every comment that you don't want to mod FO has to come attached with a negative remark about FO. There is no competition going on that I know of, and really no reason for such avid resentment.

In reference to comments meant for private communication, I am and always have been readily accessible via WLM, PM, etc .

 

[Lord_Trekie]

Temporarily Closing Thread

 

[Hellkite]

Decorum gentlemen !

We are all friends here and everyone entitled to an opinion even if thous opinions disagrees with those of our own.

There will be Civil discourse here.

Dominus_Noctis & TheStarfleetKid both of you take note of this respectfully or actions will be taking

 

[StarBlade]

Also unsure of what you mean "I don't need FO to enjoy A2 than I was before". If you don't wish to mod FO, that's your choice. No problem there as I see it - the only issue is slander.

I would ask you clarify what you mean by "slander". I take that word very seriously.

And I have done nothing to warrant any warning, Hellkite. I will, of course, abide.

 

[Hellkite]

Spoiler: slander

slan·der
   /ˈslændər/ Show Spelled[slan-der] Show IPA
–noun
1.
defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2.
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3.
Law . defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5.
to utter or circulate slander.

A better world would have been

misconstrue [ˌmɪskənˈstruː]
vb -strues, -struing, -strued
(tr) to interpret mistakenly


Given that Slander is a High accusation

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

I think you've made it clear there is no point of continuing this discussion between the two of us StarFleetKid, as it just isn't leading to anything productive. Statements such as "the very premise of FO's existence is that A2's moddability is broken - and that they're fixing it" show a general lack of respect for FO and its developers I would strongly argue, and there is no way to discuss something in that light without caustic remarks flaring up. However, now that I understand that you don't use the PP or FO, (and that you have no desire to) I guess the question is why continue responding to my statements? This discussion seems to only have become more malevolent because of it, and I think everybody here would much rather it lead to something productive.

As you yourself stated "The whole concept of modding is itself an extension in the life of the game, making it more fun in new and exciting ways for years to come" - that is what Fleet Ops is as well. A tool is a tool - if you don't want to use it and don't know how it works, there's no real reason to imply it would besmirch your honor if you were to use it. My only hope is that someone took away something other than "debates about Fleet Ops turn ugly".

Again, I'll gladly discuss personal issues (if you have one with me) over the proper medium. Probably it's best to consider any of my questions here as rhetorical and more for thought - and please bear in mind, any statements that sound hostile to you should not be taken as such . My intent is merely to qualify, not to war.

 

[StarBlade]

I think I made it clear that I intend to abide by "agreeing to disagree", and so my part in this discussion is finished. Nevertheless, I must insist you either retract your use of the term "slander" and apologize. That is an unfair allegation, and that I shall not abide-- from anyone.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

Even though I think that question was designed to setup a pitfall, I believe at the strong risk of "back-seat moderating" that it would be inappropriate to talk about this obviously personal issue on these public forums. If you want to discuss what I perceived as mudslinging* I am of course willing to off the public forum. This is becoming more and more a personal matter, and I don't think that's considered appropriate.

*Hellkite, misconstrue would only cover the circumstances if it were said in error, but it appears to be genuinely believed, so I don't think the word is appropriate.

Unfortunately, I'd rather not have posted this particular post at all.

 

[Hellkite]

"back-seat moderating"

I'm not one that I'm the real thing last time I looked I'm a Site Managers so my ruling is as follows

It is not slander See Definition above in spoiler what TheStarfleetKid said.

What it was a statement of his opinion.

One being Dominus_Noctis should have maned up and took it as such went on about one business.

End of story

back to topic

 

[StarBlade]

Well, you can make a pelt out of a rabbit, and I have herd they make good stew, but much like legacy, you have to kill them first to make them of any good use. Until then, it isn't worth the $20 i payed for it in box. A good mod in that case would be like killing it because its completely different.

I somehow overlooked this earlier. Thanks for the laugh, Adm_Z. I guess a mod for Legacy would be like turning it into the Rabbit of DOOM from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "We'll not risk another frontal assault-- that rabbit's DYNAMITE!" "Bring up the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!" And so on.

[/off-topic]