What If...

[Syf]

Let all have a little fun with a little "broad" debate. We all know our history. We've been talking about it, learning about it, and sometimes ignoring it...lol Now, I myself enjoy pondering and debating "what if"... it's always fun and allows one to open up their mind, and learn to value what they have.

So, Feel free to ponder and debate anything in history. Only major thing to remember is to keep it related to our global history, keep it civil, and have some brainy styled fun.

I'll start with this.

Back at the end of WWII, Japan came close to not surrendering because of a radical Major attempted to prevent the Emperor's surrender to the Allies. At the same time, the President of the United states gave the order to use the 3rd nuclear bomb... with a target of Tokyo, Japan (which is where the Emperor's palace was). During this time, the Allies were hoping for Japan's surrender as to avoid an imminent show of force, a beach landing/invasion force much like that of D-Day (Battle of Normandy). Even though Great Britain and the USA were hoping for a forced peace with Japan, they were fully prepared to commit to a massive and bloody invasion of the main Japanese island of Japan.

Now, this is where the "what if" part comes in... What if Japan didn't surrender...

Feel free to respond, and even add in your own "what if".

 

[Knight]

guess if its limited to global history, that rules out the "what if Roddenbury never came up with Star Trek?" question then lol....

 

[Majestic]

I love what if's... that's one of many reasons why Sliders is my favourite show of all time.

I didn't actually know about that Syf, about the Japanese Emperor and all.

 

[Amateur]

What if Japan didn't surrender...

Apart from an horrendous loss of life?

I think that, inevitably, the Allies would have won by shear numbers. The fleet was Japan's main defence and had been crushed repeatedly by American Taskforces.

Of course, most of the infantry used by Japan were one step away from fanatics - plus the fact that a relatively small island nation will be harder to mount a sea invasion on than an equatorial coastline.

The result, a second D-day; though this time with more troops and a higher price; - it is likely that even to move a mile would cost hundreds of lives.

At best, I'd say the war would last another three months. That's not including how many atomic weapons are employed.

Another 'what if..':

What if the Roman Empire didn't fall?

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

Three month is a optimistic guess there, I think. First of all the USA would have had an ally in the invasion of Japan: the USSR.
Just before Imperial Japan then surrendered, Stalin had ordered troops from the Ukraine and Siberia moved to Sachalin, ready to board ships and to deploy on the Japanese coasts. A two front war would have been quite exhausting for the Japanese, had they already lost the bulk of their forces in the defence of Island against the US/British/Belgian/Australian forces as well as in China.

Then I think the USA would have used more nuclear weapons, not caring about the side effects such weapons has (Hey, they tested these weapons on their own people!)

Another 'what if..':

What if the Roman Empire didn't fall?

Depends on the time you set for the beginning of that. Surely it would be interesting what happened if there had been no Roman Empire... It was some kind of mixed up democracy before Caesar came to power during the civil war.

 

[Dontai]

what if WW3 had happened.

what if WW4 happened? who would have started it?

What if Germany one ww2? Would we all be germans? Would their been revolt? would star trek be made of nothing but germans?

 

[La Patience]

Yay

Since im a great fan of time parodoxes and the like, i love these kind of questions...

If japan did not surrender then probably they would have nuked Tokyo and well the future of technology would be far behind what we are today ( no offence to other countries development, but come on the japanies are far superior to us in this field ) and from there could spout hundreds of possibilaties that we can probably not even think of it realy is that major an event. actualy anything we do can have such an impact on the world albeit in different ways. Its realy confusing but really fun to talk about possibilaties or what if's hee

 

[Timothyjmcneeley]

Great topic Syf. I'm going to have to give it some thought. My "what if's" consist of galatic thoughts.

 

[Cylon]

What if the Roman Empire didn't fall?

I read one like this in a magazine once, the world was divided into 2 super empires of Rome and China.

 

[Syf]

Majestic: Yep... There's a lot about WWII that has only just started to surface. Anything that's classified top secret by the US or UK or UN govs/counsel usually will not be released to the public for a minimum of 50 to 100 years... Imagine what other secrets of WWII we will learn in the 2040's

Now, I think that Japan would have been nuked beyond measure. Simply put, the Japanese would not have surrendered without the call of the Emperor. It would have been a very very bloody invasion attempt, but ultimately would have failed. That's where the 4th, 5th, and so on, nukes would have been used to stomp out any hopes the Japanese would have had to rebuild. I honestly think the Allied forces would have been targeted by the remaining Japanese in an all-out Guerrilla war that would have lasted even to this day (much like the Terror war that is plaguing us now).

I don't see Stalin (USSR) joining forces much with the other Allied forces. They may have initially joined the invasion efforts, but ultimately would have withdrawn from the Pacific theater at that time. I do however, see China as the most likely of unlikely allies for the Allied forces. We would have used China as the primary staging ground for all actions against Japan, even up to today. The USSR, I think, would have become untrusting of the allies when China became the major player in that arena. Which would have lead to yet another war. I think the USSR would have tried to stop the western bloc allies from amassing a large stockpile of weapons and forces in China. A cold war at the very least. At least, that's my thoughts on the matter.

The Roman Empire... I like the subject, but let's confine the concept to a smaller timeframe. It'll make for a better debate if we limit our targeted timeframe.

 

[Amateur]

The Roman Empire... I like the subject, but let's confine the concept to a smaller timeframe. It'll make for a better debate if we limit our targeted timeframe.

Fair Enough

I think that everyone can agree the world would be very different - think of most major advantages made by the Japanese in the twentieth century, especially is seismology and robotics.

Now remove them - we wouldn't have half the stuff we have today, including most games consoles.

That is without factoring in how much other countries would change due to a prolonged war. Any of a number of countries, including Britain which then still had a partial empire, might undergo a revolution.

 

[Creed]

actually Japan was more or less on it's last legs anyway, her war machine broken down to the extent that she really had no choice but to put untrainied kids into bi-planes.

Her fuel reserves were almost depleted and her supply of war materials (steel etc) cut off by the increasing American submarine blockade (yes they did it very bit as nastily as the germans did) Their army in manchuria was literally starving to death...

The war might have continued for longer but Japan really didn't have much choice left in the end... lets not forget that they didn't surrender immediately after those bombs, and it wasn't the first time they had talked about it... (talks were started through scandinavia as early as June)

Most historians now agree that the bombs were dropped mostly to make a point to the Russians, and to test the new technology in the field, rather than for any real war effect....

As for the lack of technological ingenuity... look at just how well the world managed to cream off the scientists from Germany... I really don't think Japan would ahev been all that different.

We just might be talking about Korean/ chinese or malaysian companies instead of japanese, the same minds having done the work but other people gotten the dosh..

A more telling question might be... what if they had made peace before they were broken? Back when the 'minds' in charge were looking at abandoning Australia as far south as Brisbane in the case of an invasion...

Would their perversion of the bushido code have survived, would the cold war have been tri-polar, what effect when China went communist?

 

[Steven Kodaly]

An interesting what-if to consider, as I am sure that many historians have considered, is "what if France had extended the Maginot Line across the French-Belgian border?"

Another what-if to consider: "what if Hitler had not been hell-bent on exterminating the Jews?" Think on it. Europe's Jewry had, for centuries, been spat upon, yet across those same centuries had loaned the Kingdoms of Christendom sums of money. The Hebrew Culture prided itself on a tradition of excellence, producing doctors, scientists, engineers - all things that Hitler and Europe needed. Further, without all the resources allocated towards the extermination of those six million - plus human beings, Hitler and his war machine would have had freight cars, troops, and supplies freed up for combat. That same war machine, crippled by wasting valuable supplies in extermination camps, had made a good accounting for itself on the field of battle.

Simple changes in policy could have drastically changed the course of World War II.

 

[Theta Sigma]

What if Hubert H Humphrey was elected President of the United States in 1968. That is something I like to know.

Also there was an American Dad episode speculated that if Ronald Reagan had not been wounded in an assassination attempt he would have lost the 1984 election to Walter F Mondale and President Mondale would have given the US to the Soviet Union 47 days into his presidency. Mondale has been treated as a political joke especially since his defeat to Reagan in 1984 but does anyone seriously believe he would have been incompetent enough to give the US to the Soviets?

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

An interesting what-if to consider, as I am sure that many historians have considered, is "what if France had extended the Maginot Line across the French-Belgian border?"

Another what-if to consider: "what if Hitler had not been hell-bent on exterminating the Jews?" Think on it. Europe's Jewry had, for centuries, been spat upon, yet across those same centuries had loaned the Kingdoms of Christendom sums of money. The Hebrew Culture prided itself on a tradition of excellence, producing doctors, scientists, engineers - all things that Hitler and Europe needed. Further, without all the resources allocated towards the extermination of those six million - plus human beings, Hitler and his war machine would have had freight cars, troops, and supplies freed up for combat. That same war machine, crippled by wasting valuable supplies in extermination camps, had made a good accounting for itself on the field of battle.

Simple changes in policy could have drastically changed the course of World War II.

Think the other "what if" questions that could be asked on that line are...What if hitler was as good of a military mind as he was a politition...and what if his own generals would have been successful in assasinating him...On that note I am very thankful he was an idiot when it came to military strategy.

What if American did not use the bomb and Japan was allowed to build its jet air force to defend its homeland against an allied attack. Think you might have seen the Pacific fleet wiped out a second time.

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

What if American did not use the bomb and Japan was allowed to build its jet air force to defend its homeland against an allied attack. Think you might have seen the Pacific fleet wiped out a second time.

Hm, in the end Japan had some schoolboys fly their aircrafts. "Superior" tech does not mean victory. The Korean War should have shown that. The Soviet MiG-15 was superior to the American F-86 Sabre, but the Americans had better chances because their pilots were better trained.

I can't kill you with a calibre 120mm smoothbore Tank Gun I have no idea how I actually aim or I kill you with a stone... well.

 

[Creed]

As i say the fact was Japan had neither the tech nor the resources left to field any real airforce... let alone a Jet one.

Planes take things like fuel and rubber seals, Japan was basically out of both..


Superior tech is utterly redundant when you haven't the material to translate it or the experienced pilots to fly it....

Then there is the question of whether they could have actually produced such. They hadn't after all managed an update on the Zero (cutting edge at the start fo the war.. well behind the times by the middle) and even russia based it's jet tech off of boeing engines we gave them (and so did china... the chinese pilots flying in the korean war were basically still using boeing engines)

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

(and so did china... the chinese pilots flying in the korean war were basically still using boeing engines)

That is basically not true. The Soviet jet engine technology was based on research done in Nazi-Germany... In fact, Boeing as well as the Mikoyan Gurevich construction bureau had insight on the same German research and thus came to the same conclusions.

The later MiG-15 jet engies were copies of the British Rolls Royce Nene engines - with some Russian improvements in terms of durability and simplicity


EDIT: Yaaaay! Two Thousand and One Posts!

 

[Paulhanselluk]

Iam not the first to bring up this "What If" (in fact I think it was even raised by Dr Jackson in SG1 as well), but here goes:-

What if the Dark Ages had never happend, and in fact science and technology had continued to develop at the correct rate, where would we be now?

 

[Phoenix]

Then it's altogether possible that I'd be stepping out of your house's personal transporter to say hi.....

Buuuuutttt......on the flip side......what if the Dark Ages had happened.....but ended up differently? Like the Nobility having REALLY clamped down on the people, so that each country was ruled by monarchs? Can you imagine how many more wars we'd have had.....!

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

As i say the fact was Japan had neither the tech nor the resources left to field any real airforce... let alone a Jet one.

Planes take things like fuel and rubber seals, Japan was basically out of both..


Superior tech is utterly redundant when you haven't the material to translate it or the experienced pilots to fly it....

Then there is the question of whether they could have actually produced such. They hadn't after all managed an update on the Zero (cutting edge at the start fo the war.. well behind the times by the middle) and even russia based it's jet tech off of boeing engines we gave them (and so did china... the chinese pilots flying in the korean war were basically still using boeing engines)

I remember seeing somewhere that Japan had secret underground factories. They had the tech from the Germans. They improved upon it. They had in the works multiple jet fighters. Icluding a flying bomb(kamikazie). If I remember right. That is where alot of AMerican fighter tech was inspired from. And Russia was inspired by German fighter tech. I am sure that Japan would not have "won" the war. But it would have been either much longer or ended with a peace treaty of some kind with Japan never being over run by allied forces.


What if we could actually rediscover the real tech that was used to build many of the large structures of the ancient world.

 

[Cylon]

Buuuuutttt......on the flip side......what if the Dark Ages had happened.....but ended up differently? Like the Nobility having REALLY clamped down on the people, so that each country was ruled by monarchs? Can you imagine how many more wars we'd have had.....!

If they had continued even longer aztecs could have discovered the "new world" of Europe and colonized it.

 

[Jasoneagle]

Then it's altogether possible that I'd be stepping out of your house's personal transporter to say hi.....

Buuuuutttt......on the flip side......what if the Dark Ages had happened.....but ended up differently? Like the Nobility having REALLY clamped down on the people, so that each country was ruled by monarchs? Can you imagine how many more wars we'd have had.....!

This one here actually leads me to one, Little Thought of fact, American was one of the First Countries not Rules be a King. Even up into more recent Times Many of the Countries of the World where ruled by a Monarch of some kind, be they a King, Czar (think that is Spelled right), Regient, Emperor, or some other form the the Word.

What if The 13 Colonies had not Said to England We Don't want to be part of your Country any more if you are going to take our money and give us no say?

 

[Creed]

um... countries not ruled by a king... Athens and all the countries in her hegemony... three centuries BC..., Rome, the Northern amerindian nations....even France...

Sorry, lots of people did it beforehand, indeed many of the phrases in both the DoI and the USC were directly taken from other sources..

But the point still stands, indeed has been written about rather extensively (book called the Two georges where Washington and king G come to an agreement springs readily to mind)

But that naturally leads on to one of the most popular what ifs.... what if the American Civil war hadn't ended...
If the South had prepared before they said that they weren't willing to have the north take their money and not give them a say...
If the south had followed up after the first bull run
If britain had backed the south militarily instead of with words,
If the south hadn't stopped selling cotton to try and curry favour..
If sherman hadn't marched to the sea
If various folk hadn't messed up at Gettysburg...

We surely don't believe there would still be a recognised slave owning nation in the west, but would they have done more to stop it existing in palces like india and Nigeria, would it have changed the shape of Japanese/ german involvement in the americas...

Would one of the two gone commie?

Lots of questions on that one

 

[Jasoneagle]

um... countries not ruled by a king... Athens and all the countries in her hegemony... three centuries BC..., Rome, the Northern amerindian nations....even France...

Sorry, lots of people did it beforehand, indeed many of the phrases in both the DoI and the USC were directly taken from other sources..

But the point still stands, indeed has been written about rather extensively (book called the Two georges where Washington and king G come to an agreement springs readily to mind)

But that naturally leads on to one of the most popular what ifs.... what if the American Civil war hadn't ended
If the south had followed up after the first bull run
If britain had backed the south militarily instead of with words,
If the south hadn't stopped selling cotton to try and curry favour..
If sherman hadn't marched to the sea
If various folk hadn't messed up at Gettysburg...

We surely don't believe there would still be a recognised slave owning nation in the west, but would they have done more to stop it existing in palces like india and Nigeria, would it have changed the shape of Japanese/ german involvement in the americas...

Would one of the two gone commie?

Lots of questions on that one

Just a Quick not on the Civil War Aspect;

Was not about Slavery, Even Pres Lincoln Owned slaves.

But if the war never ended is a Good one But what if the South Had won that War? And here is another one What if America had actually Lost a War they where in, If you think about it American Never Lost a War they where involved in, Vietnam was A Conflict never was it Declared a War by Congress so we did not Lose a war there.

 

[Creed]

Was not about Slavery, Even Pres Lincoln Owned slaves

Aye, and his 'solution' for the problem, right up until the address had always been to give them a nation of their own... somewhere else (presumably back in africa whether they liked it or not)

The origins as you say were much more about the right to a fair voice in representation and a fair share of the industrial future.. which perhaps is part of the problem for the 'what if's of the scenario, because the south really honestly didn't have the industrial capability to continue to contest long term, let alone genuinely win a protracted war (hence the question about the first bull run-manassas)

As for an america un-humbled, aye would we be looking at an even more insular nation who never spoke about their responsibility to the world scene, and who therefore didn't involve itself in korea, Nam, Granada, etc...