[News] UK/England Riots

[Dan1025]

Not sure how many here have been following the rioting going on across several parts of England over the last 3-4 nights, thought I'd start a thread for those of us currently in the UK or England, and anyone else who wants to join the discussion.

What began with a peaceful protest against the shooting of a 29 year old man by police officers (the details of which are still unknown) has now turned into a a self sustaining series of riots across several English cities, with London being the worst affected. Rioters have been setting fires, looting shops & businesses and attacking police over the last 3 nights. Some 16,000 police have now been deployed in London alone to try and restore order, but there is still heavy rioting going in Manchester.

Both the London Mayer Boris Johnson and the Prime Minister David Cameron have cut short their summer breaks and returned, with the PM scheduled to host emergency meetings of the cabinet later this week.

The Metropolitan police report that they've arrested nearly 700 people since the rioting began, with almost every London jail now full and prisoners being tranferred to other areas. They're also publishiing the faces/images of any rioters caught on CCTV cameras to try and identify them for future arrest & prosecution.

The situation has now essentially become a way for the angry members of many communities who have problems with the police and the government to vent their frustrations, and a lot of people are simply being swept up in mob mentalities and commiting acts of violence and vandalism for no reason whatsoever. The behaviour of those roaming the streets causing trouble is nothing less than disgraceful, there are even reports of 10-12 year olds breaking into shops & joining the looting.

The BBC News website has a lot more detailed information than I can type up here, so please have a look and see whats been going on:
BBC News - Home

I'm in Gloucester at the moment, very near the city centre in the house I share with several university friends, and the riots have apparently started up here as well (news seems too focused on London to have noticed just yet). There are currently at least 3 police helicopters flying around near my house, and there are reports of rioting going on about 5 mins walk from here in several directions. Several friends have told me that the local supermarket (where I actually went grocery shopping earlier this afternoon) has already been vandalised, and several shops are on fire. Needless to say my housmates & I are more than a little concerned.

With any luck things will settle here pretty quick, our concern is also that at least some of our police may have been redeployed to deal with bigger riots going on in Birmingham.

I've never seen incidents like this in all my life living in the UK, it's seriously shaking to see things like this going on in places I'm very familiar with.

 

[thunderfoot]

I have been following this story as well. I am very concerned about your safety. Moreso after reading what you've posted. Please, please, please do not do anything to attract uneccessary attention to yourself. And if you must, then get out! You matter a great deal to me personally as one of my friends. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels this way around here and A2Files as well.

 

[CABAL]

Agreed. Lay low, keep in contact, and get out if you need to.

 

[Majestic]

Yeah if you need to get out and go somewhere else for a while if you can, back to family or such.

These rioters if not careful will find themselves shot by police to try and thin the rioters out. That's what I would be doing. There is one thing to protest peacefully there is another to be a mob and causing civil unrest and breaking the law themselves.

To be honest I think the world has gone mad, so many countries have serious issues to contend with atm, like the US debt issues, Englands riots, Norway's previous shootings, Australia's Carbon Tax and Increase cost of living causing retailers to shut and local retailers demanding a big tax on internet purchases rather than actually getting off their butt and become competitive.

Yes the world has gone mad.

 

[Dan1025]

Thanks for the concern guys and yeah if it comes to it I'll be heading back to Wales lol, if it gets to that point my family will insist on it anyway.

Unfortunatly things are escalating here, there are now riot police out in the city centre and there's a massive fire about 3 streets (less than 1/2 a mile) from my house, eight fire engines are currently trying to get it under control. This pic was taken less than an hour or so ago near the city centre:

Spoiler: police

The large building on the right is actually my gym.

 

[Hellkite]

We're about to go through the crucible, but we'll come out the other side. We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form. ~ Leto Atreides

 

[thunderfoot]

HK quoting Frank Herbert? it is teh awsum!

 

[Hellkite]

Well I could of went with


Civilization: a thin veneer over barbarianism. ~John M. Shanahan


Both are apt in this trying times

 

[Dan1025]

Well I'm pleased (and more than a little relieved) to say my housemates & I are all fine, things got rather worrying around 2-3am with a lot of fires being set and looting going on, but thankfully our street was left more or less alone. The street across from ours was hit badly by fire, and the one leading from ours to the city centre frankly looks like a tornado hit it.

Walking through town today the city feels very subdued, less than half the normal number of cars & people around, broken glass everywhere, it's not a pretty sight.

Hopefully things will be quieter tonight, the police made some dozen arrests last night and they're looking for information on the looters now. Let's hope this unrest gets sorted out soon.

 

[Iashar_Koranin]

Every set of chaotic events has its order, and each event fits into the greater order.
That said, I hope the riots stop, and I also hope they leave you be, cause hey, I consider you a friend as well, and "all's well that ends well" though as far as any are morally concerned, the end justifies not the means, so I hope they get it right, and not just over.

 

[kjc733]

Glad to hear you're ok Dan. We've been lucky thus far, no rioting where I am (keeping my aluminium bar under the bed and a larger one under the stairs just in case though). Have to head up to Worcester and also visit Cheltenham this weekend though, so will be keeping my eye out for bandits. Keep watching your six.

Can't believe how it's all turned about so quick. Layabout youff of today just out for giggles and a free tv. But I guess that's what happens when the pc fluffy liberals don't want to correct bad behaviour though. Selfish yob culture thinking they deserve everything just because. Only reason I'm in a position to type this is because I worked hard to get a good job. Would be ashamed to act otherwise.

Sorry, ranting. I'm 26 going on 62.

 

[Knight]

Glad to hear all is well. No riots in Leeds yet, though they were expected at the football last night. Sorry state of affairs. Instead of plastic bullets, shoot em with some sort of tags, then track em down for arrest later

 

[Avon]

Glad everyone is ok, has been a frightening few days.
I'm still quite stunned like everyone else about how, and why, this erupted in such a short space of time.

No motive, no cause, no campaign, no point to prove, just large scale looting and robbing, not to mention mindless vandalism and arsen, and a few murders thrown in for good measure.

I've never seen anything quite like it, and in my country, no less! I'm ashamed to be English today.

Am I the only one that was screaming to send the army in and kick the 'bleep' out of them?

Over 1100 arrests across the country so far with more to come. Some as young as eleven years old!

And a quick map of the country to show the scale of the areas affected

Spoiler: map

 

[K_merse]

I jsut can't understand the whole situation. OK, it was a demonstration because an innocent man was shot. But what REALLY happened that the the situation become that bad?
I mean I saw riots already but it always was clear what induced it, why the people are on the streets, why are they upset. Even a "pointless looting and robbing" has some reason behind it. For example that many people can't even buy proper food for their children because the high taxes. But I can't see the reason now. Of course from the distant Hungary it could be hard to see the whole picture.

 

[Avon]

No, this has absolutely nothing to do with that guy getting shot.

This is large gangs of youths going on co-ordinated rampages through the cities, smashing and looting whatever they can.

One of the scum was interviewed on the news yesterday and said they were just there to get some money or anything they can get their hands on, and to cause the police some trouble along the way

Makes me sick to see innocent people getting threatened, beaten, and killed trying to defend their properties from a large bunch of thugs, because the police were so overwhelmed.

 

[Dan1025]

^ Exactly, it started off with a peaceful protest that turned violent, then it became an excuse for poorer communities to vent their anger & frusttration at the police/government, now it's become about what they can damage and steal just for the hell of it. Like Avon says I've never seen anything quite like it, especially given how fast it all erupted.

We had a few more incidents here tonight, thankfully the police were well prepared and things have now quietened down again, they've made several more arrests related to both nights of looting and the search for the others responsible is still ongoing.

 

[Majestic]

This is disgusting, while I am Australian, my father is a born Englishman and I can legally and very easily get a dual citizenship which I plan to do down the road sometime. Murders and the like just to vent frustrations, I mean seriously, Kat and I have so little and struggle to put food on the table but even so we wouldn't go on a looting and murdering rampage.

 

[thunderfoot]

As an American, I am shocked, saddened and disheartened by these events. We Yanks tend to think of the UK as the one place on the planet where civility will always be firmly in place. Some of the footage I've seen reminded me of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

 

[CABAL]

Peaceful protesting is a good thing. Peaceful protesting turned violent is horrible, but it occasionally happens when you put a few hundred people who feel strongly about something in one place. But this, looting and murdering for the hell of it, is simply monstrous. I've never understood why somebody would do this.

 

[Atlantis]

The trouble is, they aren't protesting any more. A few people were protesting at the start, but >99% of them have just jumped on the opportunity/excuse for some violence and free stuff.

In response to all this, Nottingham City Council have released a statement that any parent, who is living in NCC property (which accounts for most of the rioters/looters families), whose children go out looting, will be evicted. Simples.

I hope they follow through with it too, and this is just the start of a VERY hard line taken against these losers, in Nottingham and elsewhere.

 

[Majestic]

In response to all this, Nottingham City Council have released a statement that any parent, who is living in NCC property (which accounts for most of the rioters/looters families), whose children go out looting, will be evicted. Simples.

I hope they follow through with it too, and this is just the start of a VERY hard line taken against these losers, in Nottingham and elsewhere.

I totally agree, if a parent can't control their child they should be ringing up the police and dobbing their child in before they start looting. I would do it to my kids if they had that attitude which I am very thankful they don't and are good kids.

And Dan I am really sorry to hear of your loss (saw it on Facebook) in this terrible troubled times. You have Kat's and my symphonies.

 

[dinosaurJR]

I jsut can't understand the whole situation. OK, it was a demonstration because an innocent man was shot. But what REALLY happened that the the situation become that bad?
I mean I saw riots already but it always was clear what induced it, why the people are on the streets, why are they upset. Even a "pointless looting and robbing" has some reason behind it. For example that many people can't even buy proper food for their children because the high taxes. But I can't see the reason now. Of course from the distant Hungary it could be hard to see the whole picture.

K_merse, you do not understand the issues at play here.

Firstly, Mark Duggan (the man killed by armed police) was a known drug dealer, gang member and was armed at the time of his death with an illegal firearm (note that all pistols are illegal in the UK). He was being arrested as part of Operation Trident (a MET police operation set up to counter drug trafficking by Afro - Caribbean gangs in Greater London) when he resisted, pulled the firearm and was then killed. He was NOT innocent in any way, shape of form.

Next - people cant afford to buy proper food? This is the UK, not the horn of Africa... People who choose not to work (and I mean CHOOSE) are paid out benefits by the government. It actually pays less to get a poorly paid job than it does to live off state hand outs. Seriously, these people are poor, but they do not go hungry. Look at how many of them smoke, for example. This is an expensive habit. they can buy cigarettes, they can buy food. End of.

No, this has absolutely nothing to do with that guy getting shot.

This is large gangs of youths going on co-ordinated rampages through the cities, smashing and looting whatever they can.

One of the scum was interviewed on the news yesterday and said they were just there to get some money or anything they can get their hands on, and to cause the police some trouble along the way

Makes me sick to see innocent people getting threatened, beaten, and killed trying to defend their properties from a large bunch of thugs, because the police were so overwhelmed.

Not strictly true - the first outbreak of violence came when the friends and family of Mark Duggan marched on the local police station in Tottenham to demand "justice" for his death... What justice they felt they deserved I don't know...

But yes, the riots are perpetrated by thugs, thieves and kids out for a laugh. There is no political message - they have no manifesto... As a matter of fact, they probably couldn't spell manifesto (or message, or, "or" for that matter...). But there is a socio-political lesson to learn - In the recent past, the UK has been to PC on kids, too soft. There has also not been enough focus on educating the poor adults (especially on how to raise their kids...) - and also cutting of funding to the Police... This has to change. Bring back national Service I say.

 

[K_merse]

Firstly, Mark Duggan (the man killed by armed police) was a known drug dealer, gang member and was armed at the time of his death with an illegal firearm (note that all pistols are illegal in the UK). He was being arrested as part of Operation Trident (a MET police operation set up to counter drug trafficking by Afro - Caribbean gangs in Greater London) when he resisted, pulled the firearm and was then killed. He was NOT innocent in any way, shape of form.

Still all the news were full with that the police shot a man without any reason. And that he was the father of 9(?) children. And that the relatives and friends demonstrated before the police station for getting answers. Then something happened and (related or not related to the demonstration) the riots started...

Next - people cant afford to buy proper food?

This was only an example of a reason why really upset people could start rioting. I think that behind every riot, there is a motive. Not necessarily what the media or the people say, but there is always something in the backstage which made people so upset that they felt they have to break something... It could be too high taxes, racial problems, social issues, lack of liberty etc.
I can't see the true motive behind the recent riots in England.

 

[Majestic]

The media generally only tells part of the story or a one sided story. It's part of how they get viewers, they are a really bias bunch. We as viewers really have to take what they say with a grain of salt and keep an open mind in regards to what they say.

 

[Dan1025]

I think eviction, for those who won't be facing jail themselves is the least of what they deserve to be honest, there's also an e-petition (the most signed one in the history of the site I believe) to have all their benefits cut, it's up to nearly 80,000 signitures now, and if it gets to 100,000 (as per British law) it'll go before the MPs.

And Dan I am really sorry to hear of your loss (saw it on Facebook) in this terrible troubled times. You have Kat's and my sympathies.

Thanks mate I really appreciate that, it wasn't actually due to the riots, Matt was a US Marine who was killed in the Kandahar province of Afganistan 2 weeks ago (I only found out last night from a mutual friend). So yeah that was just one more thing on top of everything else heh.

Firstly, Mark Duggan (the man killed by armed police) was a known drug dealer, gang member and was armed at the time of his death with an illegal firearm (note that all pistols are illegal in the UK). He was being arrested as part of Operation Trident (a MET police operation set up to counter drug trafficking by Afro - Caribbean gangs in Greater London) when he resisted, pulled the firearm and was then killed. He was NOT innocent in any way, shape of form.

Precisely, he's beein help up as some kind of martyr by both rioters and the media, and it's simply not the case. Even with his criminal history his family have said they wouldn't have wanted this. It's gone well beyond being about Mark Duggan now, if it ever really was at all.

Next - people cant afford to buy proper food? This is the UK, not the horn of Africa... People who choose not to work (and I mean CHOOSE) are paid out benefits by the government. It actually pays less to get a poorly paid job than it does to live off state hand outs. Seriously, these people are poor, but they do not go hungry. Look at how many of them smoke, for example. This is an expensive habit. they can buy cigarettes, they can buy food. End of.

Not strictly true - the first outbreak of violence came when the friends and family of Mark Duggan marched on the local police station in Tottenham to demand "justice" for his death... What justice they felt they deserved I don't know...

But yes, the riots are perpetrated by thugs, thieves and kids out for a laugh. There is no political message - they have no manifesto... As a matter of fact, they probably couldn't spell manifesto (or message, or, "or" for that matter...). But there is a socio-political lesson to learn - In the recent past, the UK has been to PC on kids, too soft. There has also not been enough focus on educating the poor adults (especially on how to raise their kids...) - and also cutting of funding to the Police... This has to change. Bring back national Service I say.

Quoted for truth, couldn't have said it better myself

 

[dinosaurJR]

Still all the news were full with that the police shot a man without any reason. And that he was the father of 9(?) children. And that the relatives and friends demonstrated before the police station for getting answers. Then something happened and (related or not related to the demonstration) the riots started...

AAAAAAAAAA! It was not for no reason. Seriously, I had to use a large amount of self - moderation before I posted this. I remember you and I butted heads before on the thread regarding the death of Osama bin Laden, it got locked IIRC. I do not want that to happen here, but please, think before you post. He was resisting arrest while armed.

 

[Iashar_Koranin]

But yes, the riots are perpetrated by thugs, thieves and kids out for a laugh.
There is no political message

Actually, there may be one, unintentional as it would be.
Humans are sadly hard coded for violence, deny it as you might, even the most
peaceful ones can "snap", or can be desensitized to the point that it truly doesn't matter.
To repress and restrain an entire public as in the UK could cause something
similar to a "snap" in people, on a far larger scale, causing massive problems.
Some may think its not restraining, but pistols being illegal, knives with blades
over 4 inches illegal, and no outlets for these things?
(A game may not be so much of an outlet as many people make them out to be)
There MUST be an outlet for such things, its true that many people have
themselves mastered to a high degree, but for those that do not practice
logic or zen or some martial form, the buildup can be tremendous, if subconscious and unseen.
As for suggestions on what this outlet may be...I'm at a loss, but events
they could participate in that are dangerous and violent would be a release valve, per se.
Wavers and forms would be required for both participants and observers obviously.
Some of you may see this as vulgar and inhumane, but if these people
choose to join into said event, they sign their lives into the balance,
and as such become entertainment for the rest who choose to watch said event.

I'm seriously sorry if this post was off topic, but I for one believe it true in relation to politics
and government and societies that have such an issue.

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

*sigh* "Understanding is a three edged sword. Your side, my side and the truth" sounds a bit pathetic, but is probably true.

One the one hand, for quite some time it was reported, that the man had been shot without provocation during a police crack-down and that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
On the other hand, the Police deny that and say, he was discharging a semi-automatic pistol on the police officers.

Now the Police rarely lies, if you ask me. But there is the possibilty they do. For quite some time I was not sure what to believe.

Solving this problem has two sides of the COIN (COunter-INsurgency).
1) revised Police tactics. De-escalate when possible, use force when necessary. It's the old African proverb (According to Wikipedia) and Roosevelt's "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."

Earlier your Minister of Internal Affairs said that for now the Police wont use waterthrowers.... Interesting, I thougt. Here they would be first in line, together with a full riot team...
Whe had similar riots in Germany, during the 1970s and 80s against a nuclear waste deposit (in Wackersdorf, Southern Germany). Peaceful protest escalated into open rioting, later stirred by Police, Border Guards - including using SWAT units and armored vehicles.
Did. Not. Work.

2) Education, Education, Education. Enough studies and real life has shown, that there is a close connection between education and poorness. No, these people don't have to starve, they are not homeless (aside: there is still enough of that in our countries...) but they have literally no education. Much like dinosaurJR I fear many of them can't even write in a suitable manner.

As much as I do think that people out of jobs should receive state support, people without education should get educational state support.


One other thing.
If I read "use the Army".... Sure, available in great numbers under a strict chain of command. Tasks *will* be completed.
But do you really want to see Royal Marines rounding people up? Army soldiers firing into raging crowds?
I do not want to protect these rioters, but using the military against the own population cannot be an answer.

 

[K_merse]

AAAAAAAAAA! It was not for no reason. Seriously, I had to use a large amount of self - moderation before I posted this. I remember you and I butted heads before on the thread regarding the death of Osama bin Laden, it got locked IIRC. I do not want that to happen here, but please, think before you post. He was resisting arrest while armed.

I do not intend to clash with you again. I only repeated what I've heard here and hoped that you will fill in the missing links in the story. I really can't see what was so provocative in what I've wrote...

 

[thunderfoot]

Someone said use the Army on these people? Soldiers on civilians? Has it really come to this? What a horrible idea! Can order be restored by 'using the Army on them'? Yes. At the price of irrevocably sundering the trust people have in the military. In the USA, it is a fact the only part of the Federal Government people generally trust are the uniformed services. I would suspect this true in most Western countries. Using the British Army to quell the riots in London, while being emotionally satisfying, is a terrible idea. Soldiers are not policemen. They are not trained or equipped for such duties. When you tell a policeman to subdue a perpetrator, he arrests him and uses only the physical force needed, if it is needed, to capture and detain the perpetrator. He is a member of the community he polices. for a good reason. Gives him a vested interest in providing for the continued good and well being of said Community. When you tell a soldier to subdue a perpetrator, he is probably thinking about an air strike, followed by an artillery barrage. Only afterwards, under the cover of a smoke screen would a direct assault on the potential positions of the perpetrator be conducted. I suppose this comes from people wanting things back to normal right frakkin' now! I can fully understand the anger and frustration such events have caused throughout the UK.

But if we call out the Army to restore order this time? It will be even easier to do so the next. And the justification will be far simpler. And so on, and so on, and so on. Until we have Seal Team Six summarily executing a juvenile for jaywalking. Carried to it extreme logical conclusion this could occur. And what if the soldiers patrolling the streets of Tottenham are from Lancashire? Their first loyalties will be to their mates, not the citizens they are supposed to be protecting. All of the "Civs" will be seen as part of the problem. And if my troopers have a problem, then the Civs better give their souls to God. Because their butts belong to me. And if I have to lie to cover up what really happened, then I'll do whatever I must to protect my mates first. Besides, they're only Civs. Lazy useless louts who won't find a job and can't do anything but take from the Gov't. Before you say, "Yeah, that's right!", remember it is you he's looking at over the sights of his SLR, people.