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Theories on Limitations of the Terran Empire

Hellkite

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Statement of theory

The Terran Empire would not have progress past TOS technology and/or no were near the level of the Federation as seen in TNG given same time frame.

""Even if the Terran empire did not fall to the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance.""

Reasoning

In 2155, the Empire acquired USS Defiant (NCC-1764) from the year 2268,
(ENT episode: "In a Mirror, Darkly")

Over the next 113 years made no advancement in technology as seen in the ISS Enterprise (NCC-1701) In fact identical in configuration to the USS Enterprise of the 2267, However, many minute details mostly distinguished it,things such as the dagger emblem of the Empire painted on the doors and agony booths to keep the crew in line. The use of armed soldiers in the corridors and agonizers. (TOS: "Mirror, Mirror")

________

Thoughts ??
 

CABAL

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It's possible they didn't advance because they didn't need to. If they got a Constitution 100 years ahead of schedule and quickly reverse-engineered it they would easily have remained the top power in both the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

By the time of TOS, however, the Klingons and Romulans would have been catching up. In this scenario, the Terran Empire would likely have lost much of their research capability if they hadn't bothered with advancements in 100 years, rendering them completely vulnerable to any advancements made by the other major powers. This could be how the Terran Empire was overthrown by the time of DS9.

If I wanted to be generous, I could say that it took the Terrans a very long time to reverse-engineer the Defiant due to it being so much more advanced than them. In this scenario, the Terran Constitution class could have entered service only a decade or two before the prime version rather than 100 years, making the lack of differences more excusable.

As there is nothing to indicate that the Enterprise was the Terran flagship, we could also say that the Constitution was a rather weak ship in the Terran Empire at the time of TOS, more of a destroyer than a heavy cruiser.
 
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Starfox1701

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Fact their is no evidence of 2260 Imperial ofensive capability. Fact Star Trek routinly keeps hull types in service of overly long time frames and continues to upgrade them to moderen standards. No definite concution possible; insificent evidence. Hypothosis trators undermined the Empire for personal gain selling them out to the Klingons and Cardassinans.
 

Hellkite

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It's possible they didn't advance because they didn't need to. If they got a Constitution 100 years ahead of schedule and quickly reverse-engineered it they would easily have remained the top power in both the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

By the time of TOS, however, the Klingons and Romulans would have been catching up. In this scenario, the Terran Empire would likely have lost much of their research capability if they hadn't bothered with advancements in 100 years, rendering them completely vulnerable to any advancements made by the other major powers. This could be how the Terran Empire was overthrown by the time of DS9.

The Terrans had full actress to the Defiant's computer seen right before Hoshi Sato, poisons Archer (ENT episode: "In a Mirror, Darkly")

So I lean toward the quick reverse-engineered and then get complaisant path,

Add to that they did the something like it before this.

Zefram Cochrane shot the first Vulcans and raided the Vulcan ships gaining advanced Vulcan technology at their disposal, the Terran Empire expanded and conquered other races, including the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Orions and Denobulans. (ENT episode: "In a Mirror, Darkly")

They seem not to have any research and development community in their military complex.
I see them a lot like a third world dictator.

They get the toy and could care less how it works, caring that it works.
 

Majestic

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Well isn't this a nice thread that you started Hellkite. :thumbsup:

Personally I feel that it would've have taken them a while to reverse engineer the 23rd Century tech. I feel they wouldn't have been able to reproduce the tech until the early 23rd century 2215 or something. We must remember the Conny was first launched in 2244 or something close to that.

But I do think that the idea that they became stagnant in development is a nice one and contributed to their downfall at the hands of the Alliance.

I also use the Defiant as the Terran flagship. Ever since Emperess Sato I came to power the Defiant has been the flagship of the Empire, in my own version at least. It's known as Imperial One when the Empress/Emperor is onboard however. :)
 
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thunderfoot

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I do not think it would have taken them longer than usual to reverse engineer Defiant. Remember, the technology they acquired was based upon science and math which the Empire already used. In our world, the Wright brothers flew at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina in 1903. In 1969, Neil Armstrong took that, "giant leap for mankind." The difficulty would have been in reproducing the components and materials used on Defiant to an acceptable standard.

R&D would not be stagnant in the Empire, but it would be degraded. Scientists and technicians all vying to move up the food chain would tend to hoard information rather than share it. And it would be hoarded until it provided its owner a clear advantage over a rival or superior. Scientific research thrives best in an environment where the exchange of ideas is encouraged. I cannot see this happening in the Terran Empire. But this does not mean groups could not cooperate for mutual benefit after the internal pecking order was sorted.

One of my primary concerns with the Mirror Universe is how closely it matches the Prime for so long. All of the differences between them appear to be mostly cosmetic. How could two parallel universes match so closely for so long without some outside agency occasionally stepping to control or adjust the process? Hmmmm...

Nice thread HK! Thanks!
 

Hellkite

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I think there is more to it that internal infighting.

I kind of see them being like Germany in just just before the rise of Hitter were you had most of the of Scientist fleeing for there lives to other powers. Albert Einstein ,Kurt Gödel and Ect
 
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thunderfoot

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HK, you've raised a valid point but remember there were still second tier scientists and theoreticians who stayed and served their country to the best of their abilities. Besides where would the ones fleeing the Empire go? No one in the Mirror Universe trusts the Terrans and for good reason.

I wonder what the Mirror Universe Borg Collective is like?
 

Hellkite

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I was thinking on the lines of the subjugated Races as well as the humans Scientist

Subjugated Races

* Andorians
* Denobulans
* Orions
* Tellarites
* Vulcans
* Bajorans
* Halkans

Let leave the Borg for another day and keep the focus on the Empire so as not stray off topic here
 
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thunderfoot

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I kinda think some of the Terran technology would come from captured examples of enemy weapons would it not? Diane Duane hinted at this in her TNG novel, Dark Mirror. Wonderful read. Highly recommended. The Mirror counterparts to the TNG crew are chilling.
Especially Deanna Troi.

Back to topic.

Would the Subjugated Races actually allow an expatriate Terran to hide amongst them? I think not. The Terrans are not to be trusted. Ever. Would the leader of a fledgling resistance group dare take the chance the defector was not a member of Imperial Security?

I find it hard to believe the Terrans would not be able to successfully duplicate Federation technology within the time frames espoused by the series. Especially if the Empress wished it. We are talking about the resources of a UFP here. And the Feds are always portrayed as the richest of the polities in Star Trek by a more than fair margin.
 

Hellkite

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expatriate Terran
I was thing more on the line of the subjugated races scientist running away for there lives to the other power Romulans , Klingon or Cardassian could be were the Alliance got the upper hand over the Empire
 

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Well I will have to take part of this now -

First of all, you have to look at all known facts and similarities.

[fieldset=Facts we do know]
The Klingons always retained their bumpy foreheads. -

Zefram Cockran and his gang killed the Vulcans and took their ship. -

Archer Discovered the USS Defiant (Constitution class), and it alone was more than a match for anything known in the galaxy because it is not only 100 years from the future, but from a future in the prime universe in which the Federation that built it had specific design requirements for that class of vessel.

The ISS Enterprise in TOS was cosmetically the same as the USS Enterprise, but we do not see any other evidence to argue either direction alone. -

In the Late 24th century, the terrans were able to make a duplicate of the USS Defiant (Defiant Class) very easily, almost too easily. -

The Defiant Class was more than a match for the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance vessels. 1 Defiant class against a fleet of klingon ships and it wins, hands down. -


[/fieldset]

[fieldset=Conclusions based on the facts mentioned above]
The Augments, Khan, etc did not play a part in the Terran Empire's history. This is because the entire earth had turned to a mindset that of Germany of WW2, and so Augmentation was not a focus in biology research. The obvious focus on research was weapons and weapon platforms and in general, the greater war machine of the military of each nation. Likely, the earth had been war torn since WW2 with WW2 not truly ever ending.

Once the Vulcans landed on Earth, all of Earth united under a xenophobic mindset. Thus one can conclude all research and resources were focused on building space born warships to defend against invasions from aliens (the vulcans and such). It is also logical to say the Vulcan Council would send a S&R vessel, or even small S&R fleet. The Humans would have to develop a means of defense quickly, and possibly received aid from the Andorians early in their efforts.

The Vulcans are not aggressive in the mirror Universe by nature, and thus we presume that stands for the standard of the rest of the galaxy in the mirror Universe. One could not tell a difference in the Prime and Mirror universe's of races, such as the Klingons, Cardassians, Andorians, Denubians, etc... The Only race that shown any obvious differences were in fact the humans.

In the DS9 timeline, (24th century) Humans, while beaten and more humble, were obvious masters at research and development since they built a Defiant class with ease, even though they had little resources. They did this with only a few scans, blueprints, and a little help from the prime universe. But still, they did this even though they hadn't ever seen such a technologically advanced ship since the USS Defiant over 200 years ago.

Even though the Klingons had the same designs, in the DS9 timeline, these ships were less than equal to the prime universe versions. It is safe to conclude they downsized their research and development after beating the Terran Empire.

I don't remember the wording nor specific DS9 Episode, but I caught a hint of the Terrans had rebelled against the Alliance before, and it all sounded as if the conquest of the Terran empire was rather recent.

[/fieldset]

Now, with all that, I would say the fall of the Terran empire was 50-80 years before the DS9 episodes. So, with that in mind, the Terrans were a force to recon with throughout the entire 22nd, 23rd, and even part of the 24th centuries.

As for the other races, they would likely draw a line and try to hold it, but the Terrans would smash through every time until the alliance found enough races and time to build a rival fleet sometime around the time the Bajorans entered the alliance.
 

EAS_Intrepid

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[fieldset=Conclusions based on the facts mentioned above]
The Augments, Khan, etc did not play a part in the Terran Empire's history. This is because the entire earth had turned to a mindset that of Germany of WW2, and so Augmentation was not a focus in biology research. The obvious focus on research was weapons and weapon platforms and in general, the greater war machine of the military of each nation. Likely, the earth had been war torn since WW2 with WW2 not truly ever ending.

[/fieldset]

Just a historical note: Augmentation WAS a big thing in Germany in WW2. It was not like depicted in movies nor does it have something to do with cloning... but they did have selected SS-Soldiers and women from the BDM (Bund Deutscher Mädel, an organisation for women, much like the HJ) to, well, mate.
Much like... Psi Corps.
 

Hellkite

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true but we must not for get the SS's Lebensborn program

Counterpoint to the NAZI program of exterminating Jews and other groups considered to be sub-human was the Lebensborn program, a sectret NAZI program to enrich German racial lines with pure Nordic Aryan blood. The Lebensborn program was a pet project of SS Reichsführer Himmler. The program was launched in Germany in a small way to incourage and assist German girls to give birth to racially pure children, even if they were unmairred. We have noted some diference of opinion about the Lebensborn homes. After the Germans launched World War II and occupied large streaches of Eastern Europe, they proceeded to kidnap thousands of children who were deemed to be Aryan. Himmler indicated that these children had to be Germanized or killed because he though Aryan populations outside of the Reich were a threat. The Lebensborn program also affected other countries such as Norway--albeit on a smaller scale. Estimates suggest that 0.20-0.25 million children, mostly Polish, were eventually involved in this program. Only a small number were ever returned to their parents.

Heinrich Himmler

German Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler had a passionate interest in race purity and the use of eugenics to achieve it. His SS was conceived as a nightly order of genetically pure Aryans. We took a special interest in the Lebensborn program. He used his control of the NAZI security services to aquire large numbers of genetically appropriate children in the occupid countries for the Lebensborn program.
Lebensborn Nursery Program

Lebensborn is difficult to translate presisely, but it means something like "fountain" or "source" of life". The "Lebensborn" project was a secret program conceived by SS Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler. He founded the Lebensborn Eingetragener Verein (Registered Society Lebensborn or Lebensborn Foundation) (December 12, 1935). The Lebensborn Program was originally part of Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt (Race and Settlement Office) until 1938 at which time it was transfered to the Persönlicher Stab Reichsfuehrer SS (RFSS). This meant that the Amt L (Lebensborn) was under Himmler's personal control. The purpose of the Lebensborn Foundation was to provide "racially pure" young women a place to have birth in private away from their homes. The first home was opened in 1936 at Steinhoering, under the pseudonym "Heim Hochland" ("home high country"), near Munich. The SS by the end of the World War II had set up 10 homes or nurseries. Another source notes 13 homes. The size of these is suggested by the number of nurses assigned: Heim Taunus 22, Hochland 18, Sonnenwiese 18, Wienerwald 15, Pommern 14, Kurmark 12, Harz 10, Schwarzwald 9, Ardennen 9, Westwald 4, Moselland 3, Friesland 3, Alpenland 1. [Bleuel, H. P., Das saubere Reich. Theorie und Praxis des sittlichen Lebens im Dritten Reich, Bern u.a. 1972, S. 192.] The buildings were expropriated from wealthy Jews or foreign private instiotuions. Some were donated by faithful NAZI Party members. Steinhoering was a former Caritas (Catholic Charities) children's home. (The NAZIs moved to prempt church charities by controling chairtable giving.] The general physician at Steinhoering Dr. Ebner was the in the Lebensborn physician became the medical director for the entire Lebendborn program and SS Oberfuehrer. He was also involved with the killing of handicapped children. Given the care given in the approval process, NAZI authorities believed that the Lebensborn children would be pure Aryans and constitute perfect future SS leaders. These children were conceived as future leaders in the NAZI state that would dominate Europe of not the world. They would be the new nobility of blood.
World War II

World War II changed everything. The War resulted in the Lebensborn program being expanded with a horendous change in direction. Even before Germany invaded Poland in September 1939, they had seized Czecheslovakia and annexed the Sudentland into the Reich. The conquest of Poland resulted in additional areas being annexed. Even in the occupied areas of Poland there were large numbers of blond, blue-eyed children meeting the Aryan ideal. Scandinavian countries with largely Nordic populations were occupied in April 1940. This was followed by the Netherlands, Belgium, and France in May-June 1940. Even more children became available when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941.
The Occupied East

The NAZI program for Lebensraum in the east was not just to acquire territory. The plans for that territory was monsterous beyond belief. he plan was to evacate Poles an Russians from these territories. Some would remain to serve as slave laborers. Millions would be expelled or "evacuatd" with the understanding that large numbers would die in the process. The goal was to make the east German. Here Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler had the responsibility for persuing this effort. He appears to have assigned his deputy Reinhard Heydrich appears to have coordinated this effort and essentially he SS's entire eastern operations. Heydrich ordered the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) (SS Security Service) in 1941 to begin the necessary planning. The Reichs-Sicherheitsdienst (RSHA) (Reich Decurity Head Office). There were differences of opinion within the SS and between the SS and Alfred Rosenberg's Ostministerium (Ministry for the Occupied East) over how to claim the East. There was agreemnt that large numers of Slavs had to be removed to Siberia. There were differences as to the extent to which forcible evictions should take place.
Eindeutschung ( Germanisation )

A key elment in the Germanization of the east was finding Germans to populate it with. An important part of this process was to "reclaim" Aryan stock from the occupied territories and turning them into Germans. This process was termed Eindeutschung. The SS section responsible for Eindeutschung was Rasse und Siedlungshauptamt--RuSHA (Race and Settlement Head Office). Here the SS's authority also overlapped with Alfred Rosenberg's Ostministerium (Ministry for the Occupied East). While there were differences within the SS, there was agreement that the most of the population of the occupied East was not suitable for Eindeutschung and would have to be expelled to Siberia. The differences withinthe SS was the extent to which force should be used to bring about the emmigration to Siberia. [Padfield, p. 363.]
Occupied Countries: Kidnappings and Lebensborn Homes

The Lebensborn program was soon transformed into a much larger effort of kidnapping large numbers of these children. This was valled "Eindeutschung" which I am unsure how to translate. The NAZI description of this is instructive, "Erhaltung und Förderung rassisch wertvollen germanischen Erbgutes". This translates roughly as the "preservation and promotion of racially valuable Germanic hereditary property". In other countries Lebensborn homes were established. The NAZI polices in this regard varied greatly from country to country. Probably more than 0.3 million children were kidnapped by the NAZIs. Few were ever to be reunited with their parents. A substantial number were murdered in concentration camps.
Lebensborn Murders

Among the kidnapped children, some of the older ones remembered their parents and resisted Germinaztion. The children who resisted Eindeutschung (Germinization) or were not of sufficent Aryan blood lines to be accepted were not returned to Poland or other country of origin. Most were sent to the Kalish camp in Poland where they were murdered. Himmer explained this. "It is our duty to take these children if we have to rob or steal them. It is our duty to take their German blood or destroy it." Himmler felt that these children were such potentially superior individuals that it would be dangerous to leave them outside the Reich.
NAZI Cosmology

Modren readers have difficulty understanding the NAZIs and what caused them to commit such atrocious acts of barabarity in our suposedly civilized world. The murder pf Jews was an act of hatred. Regretably such acts of ethnic and racial hatred are all too common in histort, although not on the scale and ruthless efficency pursued by the NAZIs. The murder of children at first selected and then rejected from the Lebensborn Eindeutschung (Germanisation) program seems incomprehensible. For Himmler the elimination of these children was necessary because their racial makeup would pose a threat to the NAZI New Order. A HBC reader has compiled information on NAZI cosmology and the occult which provide further insights on Hitler and the NAZI mindset.
Repatriation after World War II

No one really knows how many were kidnapped in Poland and other NAZI-occupied countries. Historians generally estimate that 0.2-0.3 million children were forcibly seized and brought to Germany by the NAZIs. Only an incredibly small number of the kidnapped childrten (25,000-40,000) were ever returned to their parents after the War. There are several reasons for this small number. Some of the older children were killed by the SS when they resisted Germinization. The SS did not keep records on who the parents were and the records made up for the children were often falsified making it impossible to determine in some cases even nationality, let alone family names. Even many of the children themselves, if they had been kidnapped at an early age, were not aware of their Polish and other non-German origins. German families in many cases became attached to the children and resisted giving the children up that they had received from the Lebensborn centers. Often the children themselves had become Germanized and objected to go back to their original family. Further problems were created by the Cold War. German and Allied Occupation authorities were often unwilling to take well-adjusted children from stable families and send them behind the Iron Curtain to Communist Poland.
A Novel: Lebensborn

Several authors have used HBC to ensure the historical accuracy of their fiction writing. Often they are interested in the fashion secrion of HBC, but they also use our history section. Jo Ann Bender tells us, "Your site provided more specifics for my upcoming book discussions for Lebensborn, my new novel about a French girl who is caught in this trap to create a Master Race." HBC likes to publicize books published by readers. The author in her book, Lebensborn seeks missing children, looking for those born in a Lebensborn before and during World War II.
Sources

R. Abe, "Lebensborn e.V." Shoa.de website, (retrieved May 3, 2002).

Jörg Albrecht "Rohstoff für Übermenschen", Artikel in Zeit-Punkte 3/2001 zum Thema Biomedizin, S. 16-18.

Bleuel, H. P., Das saubere Reich. Theorie und Praxis des sittlichen Lebens im Dritten Reich, Bern u.a. 1972, S. 192.

Catrine Clay, Michael Leapman "Herrenmenschen", Das Lebensborn-Experiment der Nazis, Heyne-TB (1997, vergriffen)

Marc Hillel and Clarissa Henry, "Of Pure Blood" (1976).

Georg Lilienthal "Der Lebensborn e. V.", Fischer Verlag (1993, vergriffen)

Padfield, Peter. Himmler: Reichsführer-SS (Henry Holt: New York, 1991), 656p.

Schmitz-Köster, Dorothee "Deutsche Mutter bist du bereit", Alltag im Lebensborn, Aufbau-Verlag (1997, vergriffen)
 
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StarBlade

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the entire earth had turned to a mindset that of Germany of WW2, and so Augmentation was not a focus in biology research. The obvious focus on research was weapons and weapon platforms and in general, the greater war machine of the military of each nation. Likely, the earth had been war torn since WW2 with WW2 not truly ever ending.

There's a huge problem with this, though.

We learned in First Contact that Cochrane reverse-engineered an ICBM (a US Titan missile, I think it was) somewhere in Montana to deploy the Phoenix into outer space, and thus do its thing changing human civilization.

In order for space to be reached by Cochrane, for the T'plana-Hath to land in that same spot in Montana, and for the locals to get rowdy and space-jack the Vulcans....

1) Cochrane has to be part of the timeline, as does anyone else in that scene, really;
2) there need to be ICBMs sitting around in silos;
3) they need to have not been used against targets in enemy nations.

If WWII simply went on and on, and everyone became Nazis (even if we leave aside what EAS mentioned), how do we get Titan missiles in silos with intercontinental ranges and presumably atomic, if not thermonuclear warheads, if the war has been never ended? We know from history that using atomic weapons was an option. Would neither side in a conflict that manifests ICBMs decide to put them to use? Even if we introduce missile defense, that would, in a total war scenario, only make saturation levels of those missiles (that is to say, hundreds of them) be directed onto enemy targets.

And that's not even factoring in what a ruthless ubermensch like Khan Noonien Singh would've done with access to nuclear launch codes.

I think we simply need to accept the Defiant's role in the Mirror universe as a storytelling conceit-- they had to have one, so they reverse-engineered one and voila. But the question of where things go from there remains a good one: don't tell me for a second the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance wouldn't have directed every last piece of military hardware they had available into taking down that particular ship. Sure, they might have made one. But even in the Badlands they can't make enough to take down the entire enemy civilization with nothing but swarms of Defiants. Sooner or later the enemy will have an adequate response, and you'll be back to stalemate again.

And that's assuming that the Terrans have engineers half as good as Starfleet's. The plans might have led to replicators turning out parts and components that make a whole ship. But keeping that ship together, operationally, for long periods of time, without a skilled workforce or using slave labour.... not going to happen. As Hellkite mentions-- they want the toy but they don't know what to do but cry when it breaks.

But then, I simply dislike the whole Mirror concept as a whole, so maybe I'm not the person to ask.

:D
 

Hellkite

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"Necessity is the mother of invention" Plato

but the counter positive is also true


in this case the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance with have the need and would be more active to find counter measures to the Terrans wile the Terrans would not have the drive to innovate and improve there weapon systems

Better Armor Vs. Better Fire power is a symbiotic evolution of technology

As long as one Side has the power over the other the one with the advantage will not see the need to innovate
 
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Syf

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Mindset like WW2 Germany = Militaristic, Conquest, and self-serving. I did not include such things as what further was show, as I don't think even in the german ranks, all that was happening would remain. I am looking at the aggressive, invade/make war function of the "mindset". There is enough proof that even the soldiers of the German armies were appalled by the murderous acts of "Aryan selection" and the acts of mass genocide. I think eventually Hitler would have been taken down by his own soldiers, be it in the 1940s or 50 years later. I could have pointed at England or any number of other nations that had an expansion. So, let me restate this as Military/Conquest mindset.

With the introduction of atomic weapons, came the cold war, which was a war of fear of utter and total annihilation between the super-powers. But it didn't stop all the smaller countries from fighting, which is still happening to this day, and is did not stop conflict between even the super-powers. Korea, Vietnam, and even Afghanistan are the spoils of the super-powers conflicting with each other though out the length of the cold war.

While Eugenics and biological research is a potential issue, it don't appear to have taken place in the mirror universe. As far as I can see, there was no indication that the Eugenics war ever started in the mirror universe. So, I reason that the world stayed at a constant state of mass conflict. The Nuclear missiles and such still were built, but not used for a full scale attack, so Zefram still built his ship and such.

Ok, so since The US and a few other countries have nuclear weapons, that means stealth should not exist? Because having a bunch of nukes with no-one having a fool-proof shield against them is what this below implies...
Better Armor Vs. Better Fire power is a symbiotic evolution of technology

As long as one Side has the power over the other the one with the advantage will not see the need to innovate

If I am not mistaken, while just about any country can shoot down a handful of missiles, not a single country has a total shield to defend against it, not even Russia or the USA. The only "defense" is having the ability to destroy the attacking country as a "last act", total, utter, and mutual destruction. With ICBMs, there is a short period in which if one country launches a first strike with their nukes, then the other country(s) have a window to launch theirs. Boom Boom, everything goes up in flames, the end...

The question is, If a nation like China landed a million troops on US Soil (or reverse that, and the US invades china), would the US (or china in the reverse case) use it's ultimate weapon? I would think not... That would be the same thing if a spider landed on your leg so you use a 12 gauge shotgun to blast away the spider. So once again, the the ultimate weapon is useless. It would take lots of guns and troops to repel such an invasion.

With the Terran Empire, their goal is not utter destruction, but rather conquest. To conquer an enemy, you have to subjugate, as we seen proof of this in ENT and TOS with non-humans serving on-board the ships of the Terran Empire. So with the acquisition of the USS Defiant, they may have "the ultimate weapon"... but that is only a space born weapon of mass destruction. They still had the need to develop good tech to conquer entire planets. And using the "If you don't surrender we will blow up your cities and bases or even entire planet" threat does not make for a conquest to be successful. They still have to make the general population subjects/slaves of the Empire. For that, you can't just blow up every single city on every planet and colony an enemy holds. They still have to put troops on the ground and they still have to put down any resistance. The pain booths alone is not enough. It takes lots of weapons, and newer and newer weapons to make conquest effective as possible. This is our history, such as Rome. They had the "technological" advantage over almost every nation they conquered. However, they were expanding their empire, not just beating back invaders. They had to use lots of troops, and then they had to control the populations of the conquered planets, which required building an infrastructure to do just that.

So the way I see it, Sure, in the ENT days humans were more ruthless and self-serving. But with the introduction of the defiant, they expanded, probably too quickly, and before they knew it, with reverse engineering, they had reached critical mass by the beginning of the 24th century. At this point, a few small wins by the Alliance would have invoked disdain within the alien population (plus let's not forget Spock and his "change of mind" do to the TOS era encounter would sow seeds that ultimately brought down the Terran Empire) and thus caused a revolt. Reverse engineering a ship 100 years more advanced would have taken more than 50 years without dissecting the ship. Matching the production needs of the technology required years to build constitution class vessels. That is proven time and time again with modern technology (it takes a nation such as the US, Russia, or China at least a couple years to reverse engineer something of a foreign country, and then exploiting that technology takes an additional couple years). So it's reasonable to say that the technology gain from the USS Defiant would have been gradual. They would make a gain of advanced Technology only a decade in advance each at one time (repeatedly for the next 50 years or something there abouts) as they produced derived technology in the form of new starships. The Terrans only true advantage would only be found in mass production of slightly more advanced ships in any given timeline. That's why I believe the humans of the Terran Empire would have a huge research and development system, as well as a massive ship production capability. The Defiant did not give them their clear advantage, but rather, their drive for total conquest of the surrounding regions, which was driven by fear of non-humans (aka, xenophobia). It would be the critical mass point which allowed the failure of the Terran Empire.

Otherwise, if you argue they gained an instant 100 year advantage in the 2150s when they got the USS Defiant and they reverse engineered it quickly, then they would simply beat all enemies. They would have simply found they could not support an infrastructure of such a massive scale from total conquest and would have committed genocide everywhere. The Klingon/ Cardassian Alliance would never happen because all enemies, including planets and colonies, of the Empire would have been blasted to dust simply because they could not keep up with the demands of an empire spanning thousands of cubic lightyears. Remember, The Klingons are the first real enemy of the Federation. The Klingons didn't like Starfleet and sought to destroy the Enterprise... What do you think the klingons would have done with the Terrans? Thus, they could not make a direct attack because the Terrans had to have built a fleet quickly after Cochran captured the Vulcan ship. People forget, at the time, the Vulcans were one of the "superpower" races.

The instant gains of the captured Vulcan ship would be enough to build a fleet to defend earth for a decade or 2 Within 4 years, the Terran Star fleet is born. By this time, the Vulcans would investigate earth, and find a space-faring race. Again, I said before, the Vulcans are like the prime universe vulcans, and would be slow to think about attacking before trying to form a treaty of no-combat. But after that, the gains would have put the Terrans up to par with the Vulcans, Andorians, and Klingons, and the Klingons would have found themselves with a new enemy in their backyard. Only by having a sizable fleet could Earth defend against an attack by the Klingons... I do believe the Klingons of the Mirror universe to be just like the Klingons of the prime universe. This means they would have sent a fleet to attack earth by the beginning of the 22nd century. But by then, earth had to have a very sizable fleet with the same tech level of the Vulcans, and thus was able to keep the klingons at bay. After such conflict, the Terrans would see the need to grow and make themselves a force to fear, and so we see the Birth of the Terran Empire with the Conquest of Vulcan. With the Human's natural Fear of aliens justified, they would have committed the resources to quickly conquer Vulcan. And with the nature of Vulcans, they likely surrendered after a decisive attack by the Terrans was successful. So, after the Vulcans, the Andorians were the next natural Target, as the Klingon empire would have been huge compared to most any other known race or empire. The Klingons would from time to time, have to let the Terran Empire know not to mess with them. This would change quickly once the Terrans started deploying more powerful ships from the technology gains of the Defiant, as a single cruiser of the Terran Empire would then be a match for 2-3 Klingon battlecruisers by the 2160s. Now the Klingons find themselves on the defensive. It would take a couple more decades before the Terran Empire looked to the Klingon Empire to conquer, as the Klingon Empire would pose the biggest challenge. but Colony by colony, year by year, the Klingon Empire would lose ground to the Terrans. At this point, the klingons would likely get help from other empires, and most notably, the Tholians. The Tholians would be the only real match for the Terrans at this point. Likely, the tholians would not be involved with the Klingon's problems until enough gains were made by the Terrans to be a real threat to their borders. This new "mutual defense" ally would allow the Klingon Empire to survive the next 125 years until they had enough of the Terran Empire's growth. In the 2310s -2320s, The Terran empire would reach that critical mass I mentioned before, and so like a human bleeding while swimming in shark infested waters, there would soon be a feeding frenzy with many races and empires forming an alliance to deliver a final, crushing blow to the self-wounded Terran Empire. Planets, resources, and colonies would be split between the Alliance's races and earth would fall under the control of the Klingon empire, which also would have grown to double it's Prime universe's size.

Edit:

And yes, at the end of their Golden era, say sometime around 2280, their technology gains would likely be slowed, do to to much other things to focus resources, mainly their massive Empire's size. However, by this point, there is only the Tholians that can match the Terrans in firepower. Empires and races near the Tholians would survive conquest, but all other planets , races, and empires would fall to the Terrans. In this act alone, it would set back many other races, technologically speaking, by as much as 50 to 100 years.

Edit 2:
After the fall of the Terran Empire, the galaxy would experience it's first peace time since the Terrans launched their conquest campaign. this peace time would allow the races to relax their war machines, and thus their research would fall behind the prime universe's technology level by 20 to 50 years. Hence, once they build the Defiant class, the Terrans could quickly revolt and re-establish themselves... that's entirely a new question. Would they revive their old ways?.. Do not answer here, that is a topic for a new thread.
 
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Hellkite

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So the Limitations stands at so far

1 Internal infighting. back stabling of command staff

2 Lest Effective R&D due to second tier scientists

3 Probable Defection of subjugated races scientist to the other power

4 The error of Superiority

5 lack of supplies and quality of ( Hording linked to (1) )

-------

So have we proven my theory

The Terran Empire would not have progress past TOS technology and/or no were near the level of the Federation as seen in TNG given same time frame.

?
 
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Syf

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If that's the theory, I would say for the most part, yes. I am thinking TMP era is the mid limits, with early TLE era the Maximum of their technology until the injection of new technology from the Defiant class. The obvious is not just the Terran empire, but almost the entire Alpha and Beta Quadrants would fall behind in a technological sense. I would say the Terrans would have reached a level of near (or at most, the highest maximum) able to built the Ambassador class. I don't however see a decline really in technological growth until the end of their golden era around the 2280s. Most of the advances from the Constitution class would still have to been earned, just merely gained a few decades early.

Also I want to note I think that they also launched their NX Class 1-2 decades before the Prime Universe. Simply, they had the Vulcan technology advantage, which gave them the ability to produce it without the slow down the Vulcans caused starfleet in the prime universe. Also, even though it looks the same, I would say it's likely that their NX was faster (Warp 6) and better armed (Photon Torps and such).
 

Hellkite

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Ambassador class

I would say Excelsior refit would be my upper limited for them right at the start of the TLE
 

Syf

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Not Arguing that, as I have reservations either way. But we agree that is the timeline that they fit, late TMP - Early TLE (late 23rd century to early 24th century tech level).
 

Hellkite

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at their high point yes
 

Syf

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Good enough. Sounds like a fair compromise.:)
 
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