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The Physics of Starship Battles: Lasers and Kinetic Energy

Starfox1701

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no what he is saying is that the extra energy in purple take the form of extra density.

No-one seems willing to answer my question "Where does the "extra" energy come from in these purple lasers?" so I will rephrase it again and hopefully make it clear.

It does not mater where the extra power comes from. Could be nuclear fusion or it could be a duracell battery. Once you have the purple laser the power is there. The color is a byproduct not a cause.

What you said in your first post was tha red and purple used the same energy imput red was just less effecint at the output. :naughty:

Now you have stoped arguing that:ty:
 

Hellkite

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No !
Atlantis


The total photon density in the beam is that gives it color also the more photons in the beam the stronger the laser

This is about as layman as I can get it if you still to not understand the concepts. Please take a learning annexs following subjects Physics , Quantum mechanics and Laser microscopy


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The optical power is

P(dBm) = 10*log(ρ*h*ν*c*A) + 30

dBm means it is referenced to 1 mW

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Atlantis

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It does not mater where the extra power comes from. Could be nuclear fusion or it could be a duracell battery. Once you have the purple laser the power is there. The color is a byproduct not a cause.
You don't need to tell ME that. That has been my point all along. Total energy is constant, and it is the total energy that determines the damage a laser can do.

What you said in your first post was tha red and purple used the same energy imput red was just less effecint at the output. :naughty:

No, not :naughty:, I did not say less efficient at OUTPUT. I said ON HITTING THE TARGET. And not even "less efficient", just "interacts differently" (punch vs slice). If I'd said "at output" then why would I be arguing "energy in = energy out" over and over and over again? No. My point is about how it would interact with the target's hull. Which nobody here has been arguing about at all, so no, we haven't "stopped" arguing about it.

This is about as layman as I can get it if you still to not understand the concepts. Please take a learning annexs following subjects Physics , Quantum mechanics and Laser microscopy

Firstly, there is no need to tell me to go back to school. I thought you were above that kind of remark.

[REWRITTEN POST FROM THIS POINT - NEW IDEA]

We are both right, in fact. If there is more energy in a purple beam than a red beam, then either there is less energy in a purple beam's photons (doesn't really make sense), or the beam simply LASTS A SHORTER TIME. More damage per second of beam, but less lasts for less seconds.

So the sum damage IS the same for red and purple, and DOES depend on gross energy input (hence the duracell battery/nuclear reactor bit Starfox said), but the beam/pulse just isn't as long (as the energy is more "compressed").

Which also answers my "surely it interacts differently with the target, rather than simply causing more gross damage?" question too.

Can we agree on this now?
 
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Starfox1701

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We are both right, in fact. If there is more energy in a purple beam than a red beam, then either there is less energy in a purple beam's photons (doesn't really make sense), or the beam simply LASTS A SHORTER TIME. More damage per second of beam, but less lasts for less seconds.

So the sum damage IS the same for red and purple, and DOES depend on gross energy input (hence the duracell battery/nuclear reactor bit Starfox said), but the beam/pulse just isn't as long (as the energy is more "compressed").

I can agree with these staments but I think you are limiting your thought process too much here. Power need not be a constant. In fact for a weapon it wouldn't be the constant don't you think. Discharge time would be. So the purple laser blast would last just as long as the red on but would do considerably more damage.
 

Hellkite

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Your not understanding the fundamental and concepts infact have most of them backwards from the get go and want to argue about it. this is why I ask sub jested that you take a class in it was not a Sly pithy comment toward you. I do think that you need to go back and do some reading and study on the matter before you engage in a debate is all.

Magna res est vocis et silentii temperamentum "The great thing is to know when to speak and when to keep quiet"


For the Record If I was doing to use a Sly pithy comment it would have been this example:

" Given I have broke it down to terms that that my five year-old understands and she gets it . :rolleyes:"

But I did not No offense was meant ;)

I simply think that you need to do more study on the topic that is all.

That and your given me a headache. that is my wife's job not your's and she is really D*** good that it :cry2:
 
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Atlantis

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I can agree with these staments but I think you are limiting your thought process too much here. Power need not be a constant. In fact for a weapon it wouldn't be the constant don't you think. Discharge time would be. So the purple laser blast would last just as long as the red on but would do considerably more damage.

In general, I would agree, power input is a variable, never a constant. However, when you do a study into how one variable effects an outcome (here's where my knowledge of research from my work at the hospital comes in), you change ONLY that ONE variable, and you need to keep EVERY other variable the same. If you ignore the power requirement, you can fire a red laser, and a purple laser, for the same duration, and say "look, purple did more damage". But is that because of the frequency increase, or the power increase?

So, when that video said "purple lasers are more damaging than red ones", my initial answer was meant more like "Not necessarily. You can have red "heavy lasers" and purple "light lasers". It's the amount of power you put in that determines the damage."

Plus, we are talking about tin cans in space, with whatever kind of reactor, energy is always at a premium. Especially with smaller craft. You can't just ignore how much energy a weapon uses up, when looking at it's damage, and its effectiveness.

Obviously there are other factors, and they all affect each other. For example, the width of the beam. If the beam is narrower (and power input is constant), the frequency will increase (due to same amount of energy transfer but in a smaller cross-section).

Your not understanding the fundamental and concepts infact have most of them backwards from the get go and want to argue about it. this is why I ask sub jested that you take a class in it was not a Sly pithy comment toward you. I do think that you need to go back and do some reading and study on the matter before you engage in a debate is all.

I agree I don't understand some of the concepts here, but my point was (and has always been) that you've been talking quantum mechanics and laser microscopy, when the solution has been in simple mathematics. I've tried to explain it your way, using the technical stuff, but I don't quite grasp it so it hasn't worked. I've tried explaining it using simple mathematics but have been ignored every time.

My initial post stated that damage was based on "energy input", and it seemed that you were arguing against that, as if it had no real relevance because purple is more powerful than red. I may have misjudged that, so if that's the case, I apologies.

I understand now that purple lasers transmit more energy per second (more photons per second, hence higher wavelength (something I learned from your posts, so yes I was listening)). So, keeping energy constant, and knowing it isn't "sum damage" that is affected, it must be a DIFFERENT variable that is affected. And that variable is "duration of beam/pulse".
A 1 gigawatt red laser does 1 gigawatt of damage.
A 1 gigawatt purple laser does 1 gigawatt of damage, but in a shorter time.

Of course, the other reason for keeping energy input constant is due to my grasp of electrics. Weapons in sci-fi seem to have a relatively long charge time, followed by a short discharge time. That to me sounds like it uses capacitors. Capacitors have a power storage limit, so energy input is not a variable you can just ignore.

Now, the bit about sliceyness was not based on real physics as such, more based on observation of Babylon 5; the idea of some kind of resonance effect was a technobabble/theory.

I would prefer that we move away from this argument at this point, as it's been both solved and done to death. I'll go back to my initial post and ask what my initial discussion point was meant to be:

What difference would the frequency change make upon hitting the target hull (leaving raw damage the same; I'm on about OTHER effects)? Obviously, as there's more energy in a shorter time, it'll be a more intense "blast", but would there be any other effects?

" Given I have broke it down to terms that that my five year-old understands and she gets it . :rolleyes:"

But I did not No offense was meant ;)

Ok good. Well I'm glad you didn't say that. I'm already annoyed at how most kids now are getting better grades than I did only 10 years ago (and I was one of the top in my school); if you've been teaching your five-year-old quantum mechanics, and she gets it, that would REALLY brass me off. :lol:
 

Hellkite

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the Higher frequency ""purple lasers"" would cut threw hull cleanly

Were a lower frequency ""red lasers"" would heat the hull case it to distort
 

Starfox1701

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But is that because of the frequency increase, or the power increase?

Both. The Frequency increases because there is more power.

So, when that video said "purple lasers are more damaging than red ones", my initial answer was meant more like "Not necessarily. You can have red "heavy lasers" and purple "light lasers". It's the amount of power you put in that determines the damage."

Plus, we are talking about tin cans in space, with whatever kind of reactor, energy is always at a premium. Especially with smaller craft. You can't just ignore how much energy a weapon uses up, when looking at it's damage, and its effectiveness.

All true but these things would have been found in a lab; not in battle. So by the time lasers make it to warships all hvy lasers should be purple and lighter ones other colors.

Of course, the other reason for keeping energy input constant is due to my grasp of electrics. Weapons in sci-fi seem to have a relatively long charge time, followed by a short discharge time. That to me sounds like it uses capacitors. Capacitors have a power storage limit, so energy input is not a variable you can just ignore.

But the capacitor has nothing to do with the emiter. As again these things would be worked out before deployment; I think it safe to assume that the capacitor is large enough to feed the more powerful weapon.

As for the purpose it was to talk about what we have been talkinag about. Though I had hoped for more people to get involved.
 

Terra_Inc

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Though I had hoped for more people to get involved.
I would have, but I lost my Spock ears a while ago. I don't really know anything about physics, but if we are talking computer science at some point, I will be there.
 
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