Starfleet Museum and Enterprise

[Majestic]

They aren't ment to be reconciled. The site creator hates Enterprise. This stuff is ment to be an alternat timeline leading to TOS

And one that makes much more sense IMHO.

I do really like the ENT designs, Andorian's especially. However I do agree that the Museum timeline fits in better with the TOS and other series that came before ENT.

I just think of the two as alternate realities with ENT being a result of the Temporal Cold war and the timeline screw up that Janeway did in the Voyager episode when she is thrown back to 1996 and discovers 29th century tech on 20th century Earth. The 29th century Sol system was meant to be destroyed and due to adverting that disaster the timeline was changed and the temporal cold war broke out.

That's my thinking anyway.

Yeah I have to agree I think it looks like a scout, it gives off the impression of being too small for a cruiser (to me anyway )

That makes three of us, great work Amateur.

 

[swilson0907]

They aren't ment to be reconciled. The site creator hates Enterprise. This stuff is ment to be an alternat timeline leading to TOS

How can anyone hate Enterprise, I personally liked it, enjoyed it actually, well some parts of it. Also who exactly do you mean hates Enterprise? The creator of "The Starfleet Museum"? What site are you talking about, what creator? I don't understand at all.

I remember a TV Guide that I read after the series ended said some people hated it because it had a Vulcan stripping in almost every other episode, T'Pol, and that was because of Tucker. Star Trek has turned into something that can't be even shared as a family show anymore for even young viewers, even the newest movie did the same thing.

Enterprise was a great series, and being set as a prequel gave the creators more options to lead into stories from the other episodes that left many things unexplained.

One of these things left unexplained is the whole USS Pegusas thing and the Phase Cloak delema Riker was going through, in that episode, I personally think Riker made his decision too soon, Star Trek Enterprise's series final told two great stories, one about Sharn and the Anear woman, Riker decision and historically ended with the Federation that we get to learn more about from TOS to VOY. Given more seasons and if they had a bigger fan base, didn't change the time slots for airing the show and the day, they could have easily had a total of 7 Seasons.


***
It might just be me also, but I think this Enterprise discusion is in the wrong thread but that is just me.
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I just think of the two as alternate realities with ENT being a result of the Temporal Cold war and the timeline screw up that Janeway did in the Voyager episode when she is thrown back to 1996 and discovers 29th century tech on 20th century Earth. The 29th century Sol system was meant to be destroyed and due to adverting that disaster the timeline was changed and the temporal cold war broke out.

That's my thinking anyway.

Sorry to question you about it Majestic, I like to know how you came up with that, I agree it is quite plausable but I would actually have to disagree in one reason. That reason is: if you think about it if the 29th century Sol System was meant to be destroyed, guess what there wouldn't be a Federation, or even anymore Star Trek. I just don't see how the destruction of the Sol System would ever be meant to happen, I think Janeway knew that and saw its possible destruction as a threat to the Federation, the Federation has never did nothing when it was threatened, aka, look at the Dominion War.

Wouldn't the destruction of the Sol System (if it was meant to happen) and Janeway being the cause for the Temporal Cold War bring about the ending of the Federation? If I'm understanding correctly and this is how I think it to be, the person who wasn't meant to have the time ship in 20th century Earth died when Voyager destroyed the time ship and only he had the technologically advanced technology from the future. Did anyone else in that century have access to it, if yes then the Temporal Cold War was a direct result of Janeway tampering with the timeline and preventing the Sol System from bein destroyed in the 29th Century.

That makes three of us, great work Amateur.

I agree Amateur, nice ship. I think it would be a good scout ship.

 

[Terra_Inc]

Good to see some SFM stuff showing up. I've been a huge fan of it for years, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Wasp in action! Thumbs up to you, man!

How can anyone hate Enterprise, I personally liked it, enjoyed it actually, well some parts of it. Also who exactly do you mean hates Enterprise? The creator of "The Starfleet Museum"? What site are you talking about, what creator? I don't understand at all.

Personally, I thought that Enterprise was at least a sincere try to construct a pre-TOS series. Of course, that approach was corrupted later on, as in the 4th season we have already full TOS tech, and all of the technical constraints of the pre-TOS era were removed from the show. Many people have a problem with ENT because of the obvious willingness of the series creators to ignore/retcon established ST canon. But this is OT, anyway.

Maj was referring to Masao Okazaki, the creator of the Starfleet Museum (best fansite ever, together with EAS). If you haven't been there yet, you MUST go there. Google it, I don't know if linking it is OK. When you look at it the first time, it seems a little dull, but when you take the time to read the articles and look at the pictures, you see how much work went into making this up. It doesn't have Xindi stuff or hot Vulcans, but awesome pre-TOS designs and a lot of love went into it. Short story: If it was a real place, I would $&@ing visit it.

EDIT:

My Starfleet Museum histories were written from the point of view of a fan of the original Star Trek series, one who additionally appreciates historical change and the evolution of technologic and political systems. In contrast, the producers of Enterprise seem to have "front-loaded" their new series, set 100 years before the original Star Trek, with technologies (transporters, antimatter drives, and ship and personal weaponry) likely to function in ways indistinguishable from those of series set in the late 24th century. Furthermore, I believe that the new series was written from the point of view of Voyager and Deep Space Nine and is unlikely to respect the original Star Trek as much as I do. Of course, I respect the right of the current producers to fill in Star Trek's past differently than I have, but that does not mean that I should slavishly accept the producers' interpretation just because it has "Star Trek" stamped on it. Furthermore, since I wrote my early history of the Star Trek universe before the producers of Enterprise put their version on air, I have no intention of modifying my history to be consistent with theirs.

 

[swilson0907]

Good to see some SFM stuff showing up. I've been a huge fan of it for years, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Wasp in action! Thumbs up to you, man!


Personally, I thought that Enterprise was at least a sincere try to construct a pre-TOS series. Of course, that approach was corrupted later on, as in the 4th season we have already full TOS tech, and all of the technical constraints of the pre-TOS era were removed from the show. Many people have a problem with ENT because of the obvious willingness of the series creators to ignore/retcon established ST canon. But this is OT, anyway.

Maj was referring to Masao Okazaki, the creator of the Starfleet Museum (best fansite ever, together with EAS). If you haven't been there yet, you MUST go there. Google it, I don't know if linking it is OK. When you look at it the first time, it seems a little dull, but when you take the time to read the articles and look at the pictures, you see how much work went into making this up. It doesn't have Xindi stuff or hot Vulcans, but awesome pre-TOS designs and a lot of love went into it. Short story: If it was a real place, I would $&@ing visit it.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Masao Okazaki (sfm)
My Starfleet Museum histories were written from the point of view of a fan of the original Star Trek series, one who additionally appreciates historical change and the evolution of technologic and political systems. In contrast, the producers of Enterprise seem to have "front-loaded" their new series, set 100 years before the original Star Trek, with technologies (transporters, antimatter drives, and ship and personal weaponry) likely to function in ways indistinguishable from those of series set in the late 24th century. Furthermore, I believe that the new series was written from the point of view of Voyager and Deep Space Nine and is unlikely to respect the original Star Trek as much as I do. Of course, I respect the right of the current producers to fill in Star Trek's past differently than I have, but that does not mean that I should slavishly accept the producers' interpretation just because it has "Star Trek" stamped on it. Furthermore, since I wrote my early history of the Star Trek universe before the producers of Enterprise put their version on air, I have no intention of modifying my history to be consistent with theirs.

First thank you Terra_Inc for answering my question, I didn't think you were talking about Majestic, but you had me confused at "site creator" so I had to make sure. I don't know Majestic's view of Enterprise but we are all free to our opinions on it and other scifi shows in general, we can all healthly disagree with out arguing about it, right?

No, I haven't been to the Starfleet Museum website yet, I guess I'll have to check it out, and see Masao Okazaki interpetation of the 100 years of Starfleet History before TOS. Might be educational, lol.

Hot Vulcans, lol, I think I know one and her name is T'Pol, lol. Then there is a hot Trill too, Ezri. LOL.

Lastly, I like to say that I agree with you Terra_Inc when it comes to Star Trek Enterprise.

 

[Majestic]

First thank you Terra_Inc for answering my question, I didn't think you were talking about Majestic, but you had me confused at "site creator" so I had to make sure. I don't know Majestic's view of Enterprise but we are all free to our opinions on it and other scifi shows in general, we can all healthly disagree with out arguing about it, right?

But you keep arguing everything I say all the time no matter what I am and fully sick of it. It's not debating it's questioning absolutely everything I say. You ****ed me off right off the bat with how you spoke to me when I suggested FO and now all the Enterprise stuff in multiple threads. I've had a gut full.

 

[StarBlade]

Enterprise sucked harder than the vacuum of space. They had a brilliant opportunity and they threw it away on random nonsense in the first season, then tried so hard to please the fanboys AND the regular viewers, and accomplished neither. By the time Manny Coto took over it was just desperate. That whole Xindi arc ruined any last chance the series had to recover itself. And it was terrible. PURPLE SPACE NAZIS FROM ANOTHER TIME!!!! blah. The last thing I want to see done poorly is time travel and temporal mechanics. Enterprise never ever did it well.

I didn't see a single episode of Enterprise that didn't seem derivative of another episode I'd seen done better in another series of Trek. And the characters were flat and frequently idiotic. There wasn't a single one I would've wanted to serve with, and given a toss-up between Enterprise and Voyager, I'd rather watch Voyager (and THAT is saying something) just on the off-chance that I'd get to watch "Scorpion" or "Year of Hell". Enterprise didn't have a single good episode that really resonated. It just went on and on, typically descending into a firefight or a lot of technobabble, or worst of all, insipid moralizing nonsense from the crew about humanity's importance and all that other.

Worst of all, they made the criminal mistake of giving Scott Bakula and the rest of the cast almost NOTHING to say or do of any importance. None of them ever stood above their counterparts on another show. TOS had a better Vulcan, TNG had a better security chief, DS9 had better redshirts and random aliens, and Voyager had a better helmsman. They didn't stand out, everything seemed derivative and unoriginal, and perhaps worst of all, it just felt like they were trying too hard in too many directions, none of which were dramatically compelling. There was a real chance with Enterprise. And it was passed over in favour of filler and half-efforts at storytelling.

Love that Starfleet Museum site, though.

 

[swilson0907]

But you keep arguing everything I say all the time no matter what I am and fully sick of it. It's not debating it's questioning absolutely everything I say. You ****ed me off right off the bat with how you spoke to me when I suggested FO and now all the Enterprise stuff in multiple threads. I've had a gut full.

Sorry to make you feel that way Majestic.

All I ever said when it came to FO is that the ODF files were confuisng and to hard to comprehend, which makes it too hard for me to mod FO and I'd be forced to keep it way it is. I'd have way to many questions if I tried to mod it. I'm sorry if you think I ****ed you right off the bat with that. I did look into FO before hand and decided against it.

Now all of a sudden I feel like I can't even like Enterprise or even disagree about anything.

Well sorry again, guess I shouldn't even post when it comes to Enterprise at all then, I don't want to cause anyone to get mad, best thing to do is to step aside from it.

 

[K_merse]

I always considered the SFM as partially canon thing. My mod will represent this as well.
According to my theory, the starship design history is canon, starting from the Comet/Daedalus Class. The reason of the radical theory change in starship construction compared to the NX Class, was the Romulan War. The older Earth starships weren't reliable enough in the war, so Starfleet designed an absolutely simple, minimalistic, cheap starship, primarily for combat. From the Daedalus, the construction line seems quite possible until the Connie. If you read history of those ships, it almost always fits in the timeline, you only have to make smaller adjustments.
The ships before the Daedalus... Well..... Err... Alternate timeline?

Anyway, I think I found a balance between SFM and Enterprise, and I'm happy with it.

And I agree with Blade, ENT could have been the greatest series ever, but they just... They couldn't exploit the opportunity. Still, there were parts when I loved the show. The Vulcan-Andorian conflict, the Temporal Cold War (for a while. It became annoying later), Phlox etc.

 

[Terra_Inc]

And I agree with Blade, ENT could have been the greatest series ever, but they just... They couldn't exploit the opportunity. Still, there were parts when I loved the show. The Vulcan-Andorian conflict, the Temporal Cold War (for a while. It became annoying later), Phlox etc.

In my opinion, the Vulcan cycle was one of their best ideas. Everyone had been ranting about how badly ENT portrayed the Vulcans (and even wrong - mind-melds, anyone?) and how unlike the TNG and TOS Vulcans they were, until they went and made the Vulcan cycle where everything was explained as the effect of evil people and an overall "decline in values", and our image of the Vulcans was restored. The largest ST mind**** ever!

 

[StarBlade]

^ And a completely unnecessary one at that. The Vulcan race as we knew it, I loved precisely because it WAS so foreign to the human experience. Then the producers of ENT decided to make Andorians and Vulcans both into these all-too-human versions of themselves. If the original series and motion picture producers had run out of things to do with Spock as quickly as ENT's production team ran out of things to do with T'Pol (other than turn her into Vulcan Barbie and dress her in new catsuits) I don't think Star Trek would've had its following. Can't blame Jolene Blalock for it, either, anymore than you can blame the actors playing Andorians or Romulans or Klingons or Xindi --even the best actors are only as good as their material....

 

[thunderfoot]

Never caught the Enterprise bug. My wife did and followed it closely. I watched a few episodes with her. Although it was more to be with her than it was about anything else. The T'Pol character is really Vulcan Barbie. What a shame, too. I have seen Jolene Blaylock in a few B films and some series TV. She is really a much better actor than the material she was given by ENT's writers. Been awhile since they've been on a date, hey? I liked Scott Bakula in Quantum Leap. Which was a funny, smart and throughly enjoyable show. I most definitely did not like him as Jonathan Archer. Again, not his fault.

It seemed from the episodes I watched, the writers had little else to do but plug their characters into scripts which had already been done. At times, I could clearly see the potential of the show. Then it would lapse back into something which would be acceptable to the hardcore Trek fans and then the boredom factor would get the better of me. All I can really say about ENT is this: What a real shame no one had the courage it really takes 'to boldly go where no one had gone before'.

 

[StarBlade]

the writers had little else to do but plug their characters into scripts which had already been done.

You can really tell the difference between episodes where the writers are scratching out "Kirk" or "Neelix" or "Data" and writing in another character's name in ENT. Actually, you can tell in EVERY series when an episode has been originally done for another episode. Season two of TNG was terrible for this (say what you will about season one but they tried with characters while they didn't know what they were doing with the format of the show). Actually, seasons one and two of DS9, about four seasons of VOY, and all of ENT was terrible for this. If it wasn't an episode that absolutely, positively HAD to be set there, it felt like they hammered it into the shape they needed it to be for it to be about Tucker or Malcolm or whoever.

I don't know if it was courage or just complacency, tbh. My feeling with ENT was that they were producing another series primarily to keep the bulk of the Trek family together, in the backstage areas and whatnot. A lot of my heroes who made Trek come to life (Doug Drexler comes most readily to mind, but also Rick Sternbach, Michael Westmore, John Eaves, Michael Okuda, and the producers and production staffs) were probably in a position where, without another Trek series, they were running the risk of being separated and going to work for other networks or studios, so the product was as much about "keeping the band together" as it was about the fans. This isn't to blame those staff members at all-- they do fantastic work consistently. But the producers who employed them assumed they all could continue pounding out diminishing returns on the same old sorry Trek premise, week after week the same way they'd done almost continuously since 1987. And it came as a rude shock to find out that the market had evolved, that the fans were getting harder to placate, and that the situation was not as they'd predicted. Those sorts of assumptions about your market and your share of it have brought down bigger game in the business before.

 

[Majestic]

about four seasons of VOY,

I would totally disagree with this, but then again I have found throughout the various community that due to liking Voyager more then DS( which I feel was one of the worse series of Trek out there that my opinion on such things doesn't really matter and is just sweaped aside.

It's also the case for people whom like Star Trek 11, and then there are the haters for it, wanting the original timeline. Peple are sick of hearing the ST11 haters as much as I am hearing the Voyager/ENT haters.

Not saying you are part of this group at all Starblade, it's just how it is with the majority of DS9 fans and/or Voyager/ENT haters. It's sad as in my view no matter what Trek is in production if you're a fan you have a duty to at least watch the show and support it, it's I feel a big reason we don't have really any Trek anymore, as fans have become selfish and if they don't like a particular series they don't watch it. In other countries, whom rating don't eneter into the equasion it doesn't really matter, but those in the states whos viewing rating determines whether a series will continue I think it's very important. While I am not in US I do buy all the DVBD's when they come out, the only series of Trek I am missing is TOS, which hopefully I'll be getting this coming Christmas, I even have the animated series.

Sorry about this, I'll keep quite now and avoid any threads that have ENT or Voy in them now on.

 

[StarBlade]

Not really sure what to say about this. I mean, I have watched almost every episode of every series. I was surprised that I missed a few episodes of TNG when I tuned out part way through season seven. They were just getting very boring. DS9 was far from perfect, too-- yeah, you had a war and a whole long story based around that but you also had some really dull episodes, some horrible Ferengi-based stuff ("Profit and Lace", or "Ferengi Love Songs", for example), and a whole lot of nonsense from the darker side of things, with those awful mirror eps and Section 31, not to mention Vic Fontaine.

With Voyager, the episodes I remember and appreciate tend to be the two-parters like "Scorpion" and "The Killing Game" and "Dark Frontier". There were quite a few of the individual episodes that I liked fairly well without being memorable, but which could've been set on any ship named Enterprise just as easily. That sort of single-ship syndrome is something VOY has to deal with the same as ENT does, in my mind-- that it simply can't escape from comparison to its predecessors due to common factors in the storytelling. It's almost as though once you do a thing well, you can't re-do it-- it has to be distinctly new and better. When VOY did this (like in the Maquis stories or the Paris/Torres stories or the one-offs like "Message In a Bottle" or "Timeless") they did it very well, but they didn't do it consistently.

But there are things I like and dislike in equal measure across all series. I've never been such a raving fanboy about any given show relative to the others-- I just happen to find less to like in the shows that were produced later in each series' run. Nothing made in the '90s was nearly as bad as "Turnabout Intruder" or "Plato's Stepchildren", for what it's worth.

 

[thunderfoot]

Beyond a doubt the worst Star Trek episode of all time was a TOS one, "Specter of the Gun". Kirk and the Bridge crew were made to be the Clanton gang at the O.K. Corral. Yep it really is that bad!

 

[StarBlade]

I think I have a fondness for "Spectre of the Gun" simply because they didn't TRY to make it a perfect approximation-- the illusion was obvious from the set design. There was a clever idea in there but it was less than perfectly conveyed. The same thing afflicted "The Omega Glory", which starts off with the compelling situation aboard USS Exeter and gets worse and worse from the moment they're on the planet. E plebnista and all that.

It's really REALLY hard to pick one 'worst episode', though. So many are so very bad. I think it may warrant its own thread, mostly because I want to speak for "Threshold" (VOY)!

 

[Huet]

I would totally disagree with this, but then again I have found throughout the various community that due to liking Voyager more then DS( which I feel was one of the worse series of Trek out there that my opinion on such things doesn't really matter and is just sweaped aside.

It's also the case for people whom like Star Trek 11, and then there are the haters for it, wanting the original timeline. Peple are sick of hearing the ST11 haters as much as I am hearing the Voyager/ENT haters.

Not saying you are part of this group at all Starblade, it's just how it is with the majority of DS9 fans and/or Voyager/ENT haters. It's sad as in my view no matter what Trek is in production if you're a fan you have a duty to at least watch the show and support it, it's I feel a big reason we don't have really any Trek anymore, as fans have become selfish and if they don't like a particular series they don't watch it. In other countries, whom rating don't eneter into the equasion it doesn't really matter, but those in the states whos viewing rating determines whether a series will continue I think it's very important. While I am not in US I do buy all the DVBD's when they come out, the only series of Trek I am missing is TOS, which hopefully I'll be getting this coming Christmas, I even have the animated series.

Sorry about this, I'll keep quite now and avoid any threads that have ENT or Voy in them now on.

Personally I don't get why people hate on any series, I liked all Star Trek, but the one I liked the least was TOS (I liked both VOY and DS9, one got boring towards the end, the other started off boring and got good at the end, but they overall were both good shows). One thing that is funny is when the haters whine about continuity or what have you, and then I rewatch the TOS and there's so much continuity screw ups between single episodes, it's just...funny >.> (an example of this would be Spock, who in the very first...ok second...star trek episode was smiling and frustrating on kirk for winning chess...). To be honest it's all good fun, and no matter what series that reaches the level of star trek (star wars perhaps is the only other one...), there's going to be discrepencies everywhere, but ultimately it doesn't matter. I'm happy to play my own weird warped version of star trek with NX alongside museum ships duking it out with my own mangled romulan creations (imagine green blobs, and you'll get the idea, hence why I never release or show my stuff haha).

Did anyone else notice the vague similarity between the jellyfish in STXI and the romulan war-era museum ships by the way? only just noticed myself after rewatching the new star trek last night. specifically the cabbage class i mean, it's a passing similarity but it's there.

 

[thunderfoot]

"Hate" is far too strong a word here, I think. "Dislike" is much more accurate. And it is, "dislike", because of details rather than a lack of continuity or flaws with the series. There are not parts of Star Trek which I either hate or love. Rather, there are parts which I prefer over other parts. I usually do not comment publicly on others' preferences when they differ from mine. What I will comment on here is people trying to quantify or qualify things. I've never been fond of the propensity for threads which are, "Favorite Something Or Other." Or the obverse of this, either. The conversations sometimes get very heated because everyone is running fangs out and displaying their heart on their sleeves. These sorts of threads also usually wind up with a post or two telling me why I am wrong for liking one thing rather than another. Sounds like someone ordering me to do or say something. I'm no longer in the Army. So I am now very bad about taking orders. In fact I usually do the opposite just to be as contrary as possible. I like me a little pot stirring now and again, lol. Helps keep me focused and adds a bit of spice to things.

TOS was made in the Sixties. (Groovy, Maan!) Continuity within a show and story arcs were only used in soap operas back then. Prime time episodic television series hadn't glommed onto the fact one could take several episodes to tell a background story and develop characters. The people who made prime time series at the time definitely looked down their noses at daytime TV serials. Which means they were not about to anything which remotely resembled it. My other favorite TV show from back then is Hawaii Five Oh. The setups, plot devices and pacing are similar. Television producers and directors are very conservative people when it comes to product. "It if works(sells stuff because people watch), then let's not change a thing about it! Because people might not watch any more and then we can't sell stuff!" Nothing wrong with this and mostly we get some quality shows which we like.

Every other Star Trek series was made for syndication. Essentially this means they were made on speculation and before anyone committed to showing them. Allowed a lot of freedom with storylines and characters due to lack of interference from network execs. Plato's Stepchildren the TOS episode is very very different from the original story which the TOS writers came up with. However, the drawbacks to syndication wind up the same as with shows which are made for network prime time. The makers have to sell something to the networks, the show, and the networks have to sell something to the advertisers. Who are trying to sell something to us.