Some Thoughts on Modelling Narada

[thunderfoot]

Just got done watching ST:XI on DVD for the fourth time. Usually by this point, I am just watching certain scenes for specific things. This time I was looking at all the scenes in which Narada featured. I noticed some things I thought I'd share. Then, we can kick some ideas back and forth here. I thought it would be quite the feather in MSFC's cap if someone publicly released an A2 version of Narada here. Please note I am still a neophyte modeller. A great many people are waay smarter than I about what MS3D can handle. I do have a pretty good feel for what the A2 game engine will handle successfully. At least I think so.

- Narada is freakin' huge!

Well, Duh! Tell us something we did not know. Seriously, she probably should be about twice the length and height of a stock 8472 Mothership. ScaleSODs are something we all look at differently anyways. Making her about 25-30% bigger than a Stock Starbase should convey the sense of menace she exudes in the film.

- There is already a shape in the Stock game similar to Narada.

The Stock Cardassian super station. Difficult to see this since there are so few full views in the movie of Narada But when I viewed the Robotics Institute in Storm3D Viewer, I was surprised at the similarities. Would it be possible to adapt this SOD by using a new set of textures?

- Is it really neccessary to model all of the details?

There are a very large number of things sticking out from Narada all over the place. But I noticed few of these are not parallel or in line with the longitudinal axis of the ship. And most of these are inside the outer hull shape. Would it be possible to simply portray these as sprites or textures rather than as part of the SOD? In the one full view of the ship in the film the only thing sticking out really was the drill. We already have more than few ships available which have gaps in their structure which are "blanked out" somehow so they appear to not be there whenever the ship is viewed in game.

Anyway, these are some things which have been bouncing around my head for a bit. I thought I share them with Y'All to see what the real modders 'round here think. Discussion is politely requested. Dissension and disagreement are welcomed as part of this discussion. As long as it is soundly based and explained so even someone who is not a modeller can understand. Do not just call an idea or suggestion stupid or unworkable. Tell us WHY it is stupid or unworkable. This way those of us whom are not modellers get to learn something.

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

When it comes to modeling there is never a stupid idea. Creativity is born from different view points. This is a great thread idea.

For the items on the ship that are small minor details. It should be possible to product low poly details. The textures can make up for the extreme detail.

I am by no means an expert Modder myself. I am learning myself.

 

[FahreS]

" - Narada is freakin' huge!"

Yeah size does matter in modelling.
Why? Because you need high resolution textures and tons of details to make it interesting.


" - There is already a shape in the Stock game similar to Narada."

There is no problem in rotating the sod and editing the textures, but the question is: Do you really want to to that?
Using stock models as a base for a new ship is not a solution, its an affliction.
Creating something which is better than stock, cost only minutes of time.


" - Is it really neccessary to model all of the details?"

You dont ask me this, do you?

"There are a very large number of things sticking out from Narada all over the place. But I noticed few of these are not parallel or in line with the longitudinal axis of the ship. And most of these are inside the outer hull shape. Would it be possible to simply portray these as sprites or textures rather than as part of the SOD? In the one full view of the ship in the film the only thing sticking out really was the drill. We already have more than few ships available which have gaps in their structure which are "blanked out" somehow so they appear to not be there whenever the ship is viewed in game. "

That would work, but would look horrible like these 2D trees you do know from video games.

"Discussion is politely requested. "

Sorry havent read your full post before i did wrote mine.

 

[thunderfoot]

No worries at all, FahreS. Looks like you got in one. What I am trying to start here is just what you've correctly responded to. Start a discussion on this with some divergent viewpoints included. Wouldn't dream of trying something like this without hearing from the guy who models interiors into his ship because he can. I get the feeling this could become something of a graduate level modeling exercise, due the complexity of Narada's shape and the large number of details on the ship. I also get the feeling for me to try this at my present skill level would leave me with a poorly done ship and very badly frustrated to boot. Avon mentioned in another thread some of the BC modelers he's spoken with about this are concerned about poly counts. This is a first, I think.

The Stock SOD would not be my first choice either if at all possible. But it would be handy to keep around as part of the reference materials. To accurately portray everything should require 1MB X 1MB texture sheets, with lightmaps. And If I were to begin something like this, I would only do 512 X 512 textures if forced to at gunpoint.

Please understand everyone, this is not a ship request. It is a discussion to find out if this thing can be modelled accurately for A2, or Legacy for that matter, without locking up the game engine. And if it is possible, then how a modeler would go about making Narada so she would be playable. I'm not so sure it can be done. If no one asks the question at all, then the answer is definitely, "No."

BTW, one of the coolest things about A2 and this Community is every time someone thinks something cannot be done, someone else manages to find a way to do it.

 

[Rebelmoon]

I know I'm new but I think until you get in there and try, you'll never know for sure. Make a model that looks like it should then see how you can reduce the count to a workable size and keep the detail. Does that make sense?

 

[thunderfoot]

...but I think until you get in there and try, you'll never know for sure...

I absolutely agree with you. Always knew there is a bunch of sensible people up there in Warren County. Thank you for proving me correct. All of my ship mods released publicly to this point are ports or redos of someone else's ship. I have some I have built from the ground up, however. They are far too ugly to impose on anyone else. I cannot imagine anyone really wanting "USS Lumpy Blob" as a part of their fleet, lol. Although, if you look at her with your head tilted forty five degrees to the left and ten degrees down, squeeze your right eye nearly shut, and stand as far away from the screen as the room will allow, LB looks like an eagle. Sort of.

 

[Rebelmoon]

I'd be interested in seeing that model. lol

 

[FallenGraces]

I absolutely agree with you. Always knew there is a bunch of sensible people up there in Warren County. Thank you for proving me correct. All of my ship mods released publicly to this point are ports or redos of someone else's ship. I have some I have built from the ground up, however. They are far too ugly to impose on anyone else. I cannot imagine anyone really wanting "USS Lumpy Blob" as a part of their fleet, lol. Although, if you look at her with your head tilted forty five degrees to the left and ten degrees down, squeeze your right eye nearly shut, and stand as far away from the screen as the room will allow, LB looks like an eagle. Sort of.

stop doin that to yourself man...cant be as bad as my models lol. Look at it this way if all else fails...you made a lumpy blob (i know not the most touching all inspiring thing ever said in these forums but, eh it true learn and move on) Look i making a mod and i KNOW my models suck but i keep moving and the seem to be getting better (seem being the key word) if all else once im done ALL the models i'll go back and redo a few.


i too wanna see this USS LUMPY BLOB (truly a name the fleet can rally behind) lol

 

[thunderfoot]

I'd be interested in seeing that model. lol

...I too wanna see this USS LUMPY BLOB (truly a name the fleet can rally behind) lol

Guys, I appreciate the interest. Thank you. But to borrow a phrase, "D____t, Jim! I'm a coder, not a modeller!" I did the A2 Physics Project and recently released version 2.0 of the Single Player Campaign. These are things of beauty and nearly everyone goes "Oooh" and "Aaah" when they see them work. I am justifiably proud of my "little ODF mods". My from scratch ships really are hideous. I started doing things like this to see if I could. As graceful as I am at coding, I am equally clumsy in MS3D. Maybe someday when I think my stuff is worthy to stand alongside some of the beautifully done ships currently available for A2, I will release them publicly. But for now, my private fleet remains private due to the fact I find them lacking in style and artistry. Plenty of ugly ships already available already.

 

[SciFiFan]

Plenty of ugly ships already available already.

Gee thanks.

 

[thunderfoot]

Gee thanks.

You, Sir, are specifically excluded from the "I make ugly ships." category. The reason is because of your verah kewel username. And your catchphrase, which is correct. There never will be such a thing as enough SciFi.

Kidding aside, there really are some awful looking ships available for A2. Nearly all of the Stock ships look terrible. My current skill level is such my efforts are about halfway to being good enough to be included as Stock ships in the retail version of A2. USS Lumpy Blob is not the only space going disaster I have created. There is the USS Picasso(my Cubist phase), USS Salvador Dali(my surrealist phase), USS Crayola(my two year old phase. Which I am still stuck in.) These are all Starfleet vessels. The Tal Shiar or the Obsidian Order would have an "execute on sight, with extreme prejudice" order with my name on it if I tried making ships for either of them. Species 8472 showed some interest initially and then said, "Naah, we have enough goofy looking stuff already. And hardly anyone uses those. Can't imagine adding stuff which will just stay in the box alongside the stuff we already have." Still I learn a little more every time I do one of these mostrosities. TBH, I'm kinda hopin' MSFC will sponsor an "Ugliest Ship" contest one day. Only reason I hang on to Lumpy Blob is I know she'd win it going away.

We've sorta wandered off topic here, haven't we? I know I haven't helped either. We are supposed to be discussing putting Narada into A2 and the potential problems we might have doing so.

I know we'd all like her to be as accurate as possible. But is it neccessary to be hyper accurate? One of the things I think about when modding is effects. What is the effect I am going for? My Rommie Stormbird mod is a decent example of what I am speaking of here. There are some beautiful FASA drawings and some pictures of miniatures which show this ship completely done up in a feather motif. These are gorgeous! They were also a little too far beyond the edge of my texturing skills when I was working up the mod.

All of the Rommie ships have some sort of bird influence, be they stock or custom made. The TOS Warbird I ported over had the textures already in place, so I got lucky. I started thinking, "What can I do to tie this one aesthetically to the Rommies which I am capable of?" So I borrowed a bird texture from one of Majestic's TMP Rommies(Excellent mod, BTW) and slapped it on the bottom of the Engineering hull. I then highlighted the Imperial Eagle on the front of the pod and lightened the color of the hull from grey to a lighter blue grey. I then went back and redid all of the Engineering hull glows in a proper shade of Rommie green. Add in the Rommie TOS plasma torp and voila!

None of these were really all that difficult to do. All of them together give the ship a very different look and feel from her Klingon sibling. The ships share a SOD, which is renamed of course, and I think one or two textures. She is not 'canon'. Lord how I despise this word as applied to all things Star Trek. Some people have too much time on their hands. Stormbird is Romulan, however. People with no knowlege of Star Trek have seen them and said, "Oh wow! These belong to two different races don't they?" Others who have a little more knowledge of TOS have said, "I don't remember the Rommies having feathers on the bottom of their KR-7's but it looks good!"

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy using an A2 ship which exactly matches her onscreen counterpart down to the smallest weld seam on the hull. Just as much as the next guy does. But this may not be entirely possible with Narada due to the huge number of details and the complexity of her shape. The only other scifi spacecraft I have seen which has this much detail is the Cylon Resurrection Ship from the reimagined BSG. Chiletrek has a working version installed in his game. It took him over a year to model and he is still tinkering with it. Hyper accuracy may be going a little too far here.

 

[FahreS]

I get the feeling this could become something of a graduate level modeling exercise, due the complexity of Narada's shape and the large number of details on the ship. I also get the feeling for me to try this at my present skill level would leave me with a poorly done ship and very badly frustrated to boot. Avon mentioned in another thread some of the BC modelers he's spoken with about this are concerned about poly counts. This is a first, I think.

Its definitely not the right ship to start with learning to create models^^
I myself dont want to create that beast because of 1) a lack of references and 2) too many details and 3) you cant see any easy shapes in that ship, like spheres or cylinders.

Please understand everyone, this is not a ship request. It is a discussion to find out if this thing can be modelled accurately for A2, or Legacy for that matter, without locking up the game engine. And if it is possible, then how a modeler would go about making Narada so she would be playable. I'm not so sure it can be done. If no one asks the question at all, then the answer is definitely, "No."

In terms of creating models, nothing is impossible. Some of these inner sticks can be done with 3 to 9 polys. But when you do this, you cant compare the result with the ship from the movie anymore at any time.

I cannot imagine anyone really wanting "USS Lumpy Blob" as a part of their fleet, lol. Although, if you look at her with your head tilted forty five degrees to the left and ten degrees down, squeeze your right eye nearly shut, and stand as far away from the screen as the room will allow, LB looks like an eagle. Sort of.

I definitely want that ship.
Seriously if you want to start creating models, start editing cylinders. Try to create the old constitution class's saucer by using One Cylinder and the extrude tool. ignore the bridge for your first try and show us your work.

I'd be interested in seeing that model. lol