A Thread About Fighters in A2

[thunderfoot]

As the title says. This one is about using fighters in A2. It was an idea I had a long time ago and happily, it works pretty well. For the most part. But sometimes it is difficult to really use them correctly as this is a strategic game not a tactical one. One of the things I was trying for in A2PP was to bring a much more tactical feel to the game. I thought, wrongfully, that if people could manage their indivdual ships better, they would utilize smaller number of them more effectively. Now, I am no longer sure this is the case.

The discussion points are these.

1) Should each and every fighter be portrayed as an individual ship?

2) Should fighters be modelled for effect, as in the squadrons are represented by a ship onscreen but in actuality each ship represents twelve or so fighters? This method is used in SW:EAW successfully. Would this work better in A2 as well?

I bring this up because it has been something of a challenge to really manage my Viper squadrons to get maximum effect out them. At the same time a cloud of Raiders swanning in from low and to starboard does not have the same dramatic impact or effect it should currently ingame.

 

[Rebelmoon]

It's been too long since I played this game to be able to give any input of worth on the 1st question. However just a FYI as to how EaW does fighters. They use fighters as squadrons that are represented as a single icon but still consisting of 5 individual ships. When you select the squadron, you select all 5 ships, they attack as a formation would, splitting up and come from different angles at the target for the most part. As the squadron takes damage, it loses ships along with the health bar dropping. This results in a heavily damaged squadron having only one fighter remaining in it. Repairing would add fighters back to the squadron.

 

[Knight]

Sounds interesting.

I know way back when during initial discussions for the Andromeda mod, one of the things we talked about was building individual fighters, but then using the combine tool (like saucer reintegration, mvam etc) to assign them into flight groups, using a seperate sod combining 4 fighters, which was stronger than an individual squad.

IIRC, the B5 mod did this as well, with the White Star ships, three of them combined to form a small squad of them (but again using one sod, not 3).

Dunno how much it helps, but it was something we discussed back then. I don't know if Rod still plans to go that route however

 

[Ryderstorm]

I was playing around with the replace weapon from FO a while back. I created a special replace weapon that would launch a squadron of fighters, I forget the exact number exactly, but anyways I found that fighters being launched and then recovered is far more indusive to gameplay that just building fighters. Another thing I noticed is the question of how to balance fighters against capital vessels. And then another point of dilema I found was that A2 is kinda limited in its abilities at more realistic fleet combat.

Basicly my conclusions were that fighters make good cannon fodder and ok scouts. Also I personally dont like the idea of a multi-fighter sod. B5A2 had those and it was a cool idea but it looked kinda odd.

Dont get me wrong...I love the idea of fighters for A2 but I dont think they can be implemented effectively or concept wise due to current limitations in the game itself. At least in my opinion.

 

[Majestic]

I'm all for fighters in the game, but as RyderStorm has said, the one sod, multiple fighters method as used in B5A2 isn't the prettiest of methods.

I just have them built from starbases and outposts as individual units, or from a carrier, like in Tactical Assault.

Star Wars EAW, is what I would like, but the engine was never designed for that. Best way, move to Star Wars EAW. Just joking.

 

[Rebelmoon]

Star Wars EAW, is what I would like, but the engine was never designed for that. Best way, move to Star Wars EAW. Just joking.

EaW has it's own issues though. I don't really like the way they implemented the rts aspect at all. The only reason I mod it is because of the high limits of it's 3d engine and some of the game design elements for space combat like the fighter setups. I don't like the ground based design at all. A2's game play is much better in my opinion, just the 3d engine, while still decent, can be restrictive in comparison and the lack of plug-ins for newer versions of max is a bit of a pain for those of us who use that program.

 

[Rodglas]

As I'm doing three MODs each involving fighters I've given this more then a little thought.

First off I hate the old method of actually building fighters. I always wanted fighters but found I couldn't bring myself to waste the time to build them in reasonable numbers.

The Patch project offers a solution of course allowing us to launch fighters from any ship so equiped with the replace weapons but this is limited as the AI won't use the replace weapon AFAIK.

I too only use individual ship SODs and I won't be fusing them into squadrons as Knight suggested as I feel its too complicated and micro-mangement

The solution for me was to make fighters auto launch using special weapons but only being standard weapons.

For SW:E which is by far the most advanced in progress for fighters most capital ships carry fighters but only carriers have a special energy recharge rate and it is quite low.

A New Republic ship for example has 4 or 5 fighter launch weapons (one for xwings, awings, etc) and enough special energy to launch all of them once(the ships has 2000 special energy the weapons take 500). If its a carrier it recharges and if still in a combat zone will launch one "squadron" every time it recharges to 500.

Fighters will not be recoverable.
I've though about doing stike fighters/bombers useing the cardassian drone

In Andrarmada I've considering doing much the same but fighter tactics did not IMO play a huge role in the series like it did in SW or BSG fighters will likely be player launched in this MOD. Each ship will have to ODF the player built ODF will require you to activate fighters and the AI biuld will work like SW:E

SQA (the A2 version) will most likely be like AndrArmada.

I should mention that each Squadron in SW:E is only 6 fighters in order to prevent the map from getting so flooded with fighters as to be entirely unmanageable. I've also used buildlimits from the PP to limit the amount of carriers one can build as to again not flood the map with fighters.


The biggest problem with fighters IMO is that while the AI can operate them somewhat effectivly the player cannot. Fighters sit when they should move for example and it is difficult to impossible to micro-manage dozens or hundreds of fighters in addition to your capital ships but the AI can.

Rod

 

[Knight]

I too only use individual ship SODs and I won't be fusing them into squadrons as Knight suggested as I feel its too complicated and micro-mangement

Fair enough. I agree actually, but it was the only thing we could come up with regards to the fighters in AndrArmada way back when

 

[Adm_Z]

If I may address the original point.

I have always made fighters for more of a visual effect than for a weapon.

the fact is that they are too small, slow, an just can't hold that many weapons.


in my bsg mod (for FO) I will be releasing soon, I tried to focus not on how efficient the ships were alone, but in great numbers, so I would say that individually controlled ships are better. actually the fighters are almost useless because in the bsg world, all the weapons are multi targeting, the fighters don't stop to fire, and their weapons are proportional to their sizes. therefore, only the cylons are very effective at using fighters because 1, they are expendable, and 2 they can be used in mass quantity's.

also something you might find interesting (if you didn't already know) is that (in fleet operations anyway) if you set the fighters physics backwards acceleration to 0, they can't stop. this makes for some really cool dogfights, and strafing runs. unfortunately, I don't know if it works in stock, but you might give it a try if you are gonna go for visual effect rather than effectiveness.

 

[thunderfoot]

These are some very interesting ideas and thank you all for what you've contributed so far. In A2PP I also set the backwards acceleration to a value of "0" because it just makes more sense for them to come around for another pass than it does for them to stop and turn. Lead to some interesting views once in a while because they will cirlce endlessly if I am not careful with where I put them.

 

[Adm_Z]

yeah, run into that myself. not to great against stationary objects.