View Full Version : Some Bad News...
Let me start off by saying that, on this date, I am suspending work on Clone Assault. Put simply, I don't think that I can make the mod to the high quality that both the subject and community deserve. Mainly, that is because of my own limited ability when it comes to both modelling and texturing. But some aspects of Star Wars do not translate well to Armada without using Fleet Operations. Fighters, for example are notorious for their clunkiness.
That said, I am not deleting anything. I may yet return and work on it; however I must say that at this point in time that is unlikely for one key reason.
On a rainy Wednesday last week I set myself a task, a goal, that I would not stop until I reached. I wanted to learn how to mod Homeworld 2. A few hours and many colourful metaphors thrown later I managed to get a ship into the game. Then an icon, and finally a research requirement. I considered my goal completed, and was thrilled at the opportunities this created.
Armada is a fun game to mod. When it comes to Star Trek, it does its job as an RTS excellently - it's got all of the mechanics to make a Trek mod work. I'm not giving up on A2, but my personal mod will probably be the most work I do on it now.
After I post this thread I shall start detailing the project I am moving on to. Believe me when I say that I am looking forward to starting it. :)
Again I shall say that I am not deleting anything. There's still a folder with all of the models I have done sitting on an external hard drive that I may one day revisit. If I don't, I may just upload them here so that others can do as they wish with them. :)
Majestic
28-08-2010, 22:47
This is really a bummer. Might I suggest you release your material as individual downloads or perhaps even see if Rodglas is interested in them for his Star Wars modification?
I do hope at some point you at least come back to it, even if it's for Fleet Operations. I am not a major fan of that platform, but I think for Star Wars it would work out quite well. I also know a few people here that would no doubt be eager to help you learn the Fleet Ops ropes so to speak.
Individual releases are indeed something I can do and would. Unfortunately, most of the models are untextured and hardpointed. I could always dip into the folder as it were when I felt like it however. I could probably get the Arc-170 up today while I think of it...
I share your view on Fleet Ops I must say. I have nothing against the team; I appreciate the amount of work that they've done including some spectacular things and greatly improved the original armada engine but I just wouldn't like using it. Perhaps it's just obstinacy; but I prefer to work on Armada with the patch project. :)
Majestic
28-08-2010, 23:02
I share your view on Fleet Ops I must say. I have nothing against the team; I appreciate the amount of work that they've done including some spectacular things and greatly improved the original armada engine but I just wouldn't like using it. Perhaps it's just obstinacy; but I prefer to work on Armada with the patch project. :)
I am like minded. I still prefer the classic A2, I just wish they would include some of the new features from Fleet Ops in a updated patch project. Most notably the avatar and fighter systems.
It is a real shame to see Clone Assault go, but I can totally understand your position. I have done it myself. I know I wasn't particularly popular when I canned Parallels, and for a time Yesteryears until Syf convinced me to keep going with it.
At a later date I'll see about moving this section into the Inactive/Cancelled Projects section just in case you decide to revive it. I'll wait a couple of weeks however, just so people can find this thread. :thumbsup:
Like Majestic says this is a disappointment, but to your credit you've got a good reason and we may at least get some individual ship releases from it. As you've said you may yet come back to it, I've been in this community long enough to realise that A2 has a weird way of drawing people back in after they've left lol.
I'm with you and Majestic on the FleetOps thing, it's a great acomplishment what they've managed to do with the engine and all their new features, but I won't be moving my mods or my personal install over to FO. Like you guys I prefer the original A2 combined with the patch project.
The most important thing to remember about modding is that you should do it because you enjoy doing it, if your not having fun you should take a break or stop whatever you're working on. Like Achilles said a long time ago, 'once modding stops being fun for me I'll stop doing it'. Sometimes a change of pace can make you feel more creative again, so if moving over to HW2 is what you need to do then go for it :)
Dominus_Noctis
29-08-2010, 02:27
Hate to break it to you guys... but... the patch project will likely not be coming back for some years (at the very most optimistic viewpoint). I don't understand at all the collective dislike for the FO engine quite honestly. What is the difference between that and the patch project in your views? Other than of course that the patch project is incredibly difficult to maintain and create, and will always be more limited than Fleet Ops (half the stuff in FO is unportable to A2 vanilla). However, I guess it's the same kind of disdain that's seen from the perspective of A1 mods in regard to A2 ... :?
Quite sorry to see yet another mod put on indefinite hold due to ... well, I'm not sure what honestly. :sweat:
Hate to break it to you guys... but... the patch project will likely not be coming back for some years (at the very most optimistic viewpoint). I don't understand at all the collective dislike for the FO engine quite honestly. What is the difference between that and the patch project in your views? Other than of course that the patch project is incredibly difficult to maintain and create, and will always be more limited than Fleet Ops (half the stuff in FO is unportable to A2 vanilla). However, I guess it's the same kind of disdain that's seen from the perspective of A1 mods in regard to A2 ... :?
I know, and I can't say I blame them - it's their mod after all and the patch project was just a welcome side effect :)
Mainly, I suppose it's because the patch project feels like that - a patch to the game. FleetOps is a whole mod; new ships, stations and all. I understand the greater possibilities it presents and all; but modding a mod just feels a little...weird to me.
That's my excuse anyway. And I'm sticking to it :p
Quite sorry to see yet another mod put on indefinite hold due to ... well, I'm not sure what honestly.
Mainly my own inability to do it the justice it deserves. Looking at the Clone Wars minimod that MAP released a while back that is infinitely better in both quality and execution I realised how much I still had to learn before attempting such a large project. One day in the future (when I have learned the way of the pixels and become a texture master :angel:) I'll take another shot at it.
thunderfoot
29-08-2010, 03:04
Shame to see another mod go down.
As to what Dominus has written here previously...
I have had a very difficult time with FO over the years. Mostly due to hardware limits. FO is a wonderful mod but if my laptop lags continuously whilst playing it, I will not play it very often. Same as any other game which makes my screen hitch and pause and causes me to miss things because my vidcard is overwhelmed. As a family man with two jobs, four mouths to feed and a daughter in college, the answer of, 'just upgrade your 'puter, Dude.', does not really work for me.
My perception of FO is it is presented as the replacement for A2 and is far superior to it. My perception is also FO has been presented in such a fashion anyone who still plays and mods A2 is seen as someone who isn't good enough for the big leagues. This has NEVER been stated directly or publicly by anyone associated with FO. But it certainly has not been downplayed either. The caveats I have placed in my mods' ReadMes over the years concerning FO are there because of people who've D/L'd them and then without even trying them out, have asked me via email or PM, 'When is the FO version of this due out?' Like all the hard work I put into the Physics Project was just a warm up for the Real Mod. Kinda hard to take after awhile. I see the things I've done and others besides myself as the equal of anything the FO Team has released. Not things which are second line or almost good enough.
I have browsed the files of FO and the FO website extensively. There is some outstanding work by some very fine people in there. There are flashes of brilliance and some very unique answers to some very common A2 modding problems. But I prefer to mod for and play A2. This is a choice I've made. It should not be considered a rejection of Fleet Ops. It is not my intention to offend, merely to inform. If someone is offended by what I've posted here, let us continue further discussion on this subject via PM. No need for public unpleasantness. Or any unpleasantness at all for that matter
Starfox1701
29-08-2010, 03:13
Hate to break it to you guys... but... the patch project will likely not be coming back for some years (at the very most optimistic viewpoint). I don't understand at all the collective dislike for the FO engine quite honestly. What is the difference between that and the patch project in your views? Other than of course that the patch project is incredibly difficult to maintain and create, and will always be more limited than Fleet Ops (half the stuff in FO is unportable to A2 vanilla). However, I guess it's the same kind of disdain that's seen from the perspective of A1 mods in regard to A2 ...
Its not disdain or really dislike at least not on my part. What it is I and many others have spent a huge amount of time actully making A2 work like it should have at release and much of what we have done does not work right in FO. Mine or Thunderfoots physics being good examples.
Unfortunately, most of the models are untextured and hardpointed
Even textureless models can be of use and it would make them safely backed up incase of a catistrophic event on your end.
FO is an incredible accomplishment, to be sure, but I find i prefer the normal a2 engine and patch project myself. There's a lot more modability to it for a start, its easier to get additional materials in, without learning how to do it all over again.
Anyway..... FO isn't really the subject here, Amateurs modding is, and I'm disappointed to hear that the mod has been put on indefinate hold. I for one hope he chooses to release the material he's done so far :)
Dominus_Noctis
29-08-2010, 03:34
Fleet Ops is designed to be a modding platform - just because it has another game integrated in it shouldn't dissuade you from using it as it was designed. The devs know that making the PP is quite difficult and that it would eventually have to be shelved (at least temporarily) since they have to literally recode almost everything to make it work for A2 vanilla -if the devs didn't want to have FO as a modding they would have hard-coded everything and not put in tools that are not even used for FO, but instead designed for other people's mods. :)
I know, and I can't say I blame them - it's their mod after all and the patch project was just a welcome side effect :)
That isn't exactly the best way to interpret those actions - the PP was a way to give back to the community, but unfortunately it just becomes harder and harder to mod stuff in for the PP and at a certain point it becomes clear that the best way to support the community was to work on making FO a better modding platform.
Maybe DOCa's WiP FO modding guide (when it is completed) will change your mind, maybe not, but it seems most people here have this attitude that "FO is just another mod" or is "trying to suck the life out of the real A2 modders". I think that in itself is a bit telling - people mod Counter Strike all the time for instance; to say they shouldn't would be stubbornness. As much as FO is built on A2, the engine running it has many improvements that make it quite a lot more moddable than A2 (which was never a very moddable interface to begin with).In the meantime before FOscript is released (which will make modding ODfs, text etc a lot lot easier), FO has been accumulating more and more commands, adding increased functionality to old ones, and enhancing performance. 3.1.4 should include a new sound engine for instance to allow you to add MP3s instead of just relying on .wav. :)
[...]
I have had a very difficult time with FO over the years. Mostly due to hardware limits. FO is a wonderful mod but if my laptop lags continuously whilst playing it, I will not play it very often.
In fact, FO has less system requirements than A2 due to better loading optimization, an improved graphics engine, and quite a few other engine changes - if it is the actual ships and stations that are causing issues for you, why not remove them? If you want to use it for a modding platform, that is of course feasible. No need to actually play the game :).
I guess I'll just end by stating that I'm quite sorry (even disappointed) to see a general attitude of canceling long standing mods in lieu of learning a few new tricks. It's not a pleasant sight to see the old A2 community limping along like this even as more opportunities than ever before become available (take MMM for instance, which it seems Majestic was not aware of before yesterday). :cry2:
That isn't exactly the best way to interpret those actions - the PP was a way to give back to the community, but unfortunately it just becomes harder and harder to mod stuff in for the PP and at a certain point it becomes clear that the best way to support the community was to work on making FO a better modding platform.
Perhaps I didn't articulate myself clearly; what I meant to say is that they were working on FleetOps first and the knowledge they gained from that allowed the patch project to come about. :)
As for FleetOps, I know that as much as anything it was designed to be moddable (a quick browse over the forums sees any number of replies by Optec saying that he'd add in compatibility on the next patch) but at this point in time it is still Armada 2. Now, that is a good thing for Trek mods. For me, it was the Armada part that caused me to look at Homeworld 2.
When (not if) I do return to Armada modding then I have no doubt that FleetOps will have progressed to the point that a line of code would add a myriad of features that we don't have at the moment. They've already given us race specific shielding and a ranking system; which I would love to play with - but that doesn't change the fact that the engine was starting to frustrate me.
As Knight said though, FO is not the topic here. When I come back I may very well decide to make use of some of the lovely new things they've been able to do; but until then it's Homeworld all the way! :lol:
Dominus_Noctis
29-08-2010, 04:15
There are already a myriad of features that A2 doesn't have by itself - race shields and rank were announced year(s) ago, and since then... well, too much has changed (and will change) to even begin to summarize on this thread. If you are looking for a completely new way to build ODFs without having to worry too much about coding each individual ranks, I think that RCIX's modding kit still functions to automatically add to the additional ranks - and if not, you can always use the include command to make things a bit easier (or just ignore ranks altogether).
In any case, I really do recommend looking out for FO 3.1.4 for the new fighter system (and many assorted features) - if necessary, just turn the graphics all the way down. The coding will be worth it :thumbsup:
I guess I'll just end by stating that I'm quite sorry (even disappointed) to see a general attitude of canceling long standing mods in lieu of learning a few new tricks. It's not a pleasant sight to see the old A2 community limping along like this even as more opportunities than ever before become available (take MMM for instance, which it seems Majestic was not aware of before yesterday). :cry2:
He's not cancelling the mod because he doesn't want to put it into FleetOps, it's been cancelled/shelved until he gets a better grip on modelling & texturing, as well as being a little frustrated with the engine in general (which has happened to me more than once). In my view all this is fair enough, we have more than enough people who try too much before they're ready, and the final products are never what they could have been.
This thread is swerving a little off-topic as it is, so I think we can all agree that it's a shame that Clone Assault has been cancelled/shelved, but whatever the reasons this is Amateur's mod, so it's up to him. Lets just leave it at that eh?
I can only second what Dom said. if its FO that causes lag, its not the engine, its the ships, which can be removed. I personally love it because its features allow you to go beyond star trek, and merge all kinds of ships and new weapons to make it good for all other shows.
It is sad that this is failed, I think we lack a good quantity of high quality SW ships like yours, but I do hope they get released in some way. Tis a shame, that this happens so often too.:(
@Majestic
Actually, I believe the avatar system would work in a slight way in the patch project. it is just a replaceweapon. Sure it uses some fancy new code for other things, but you could achieve a very basic avatar system using the patch project.
The fighters are another deal.:sweat:
But yeah, to all of you who don't want to use FO, maybe even cancle your mod before expanding to use its platform, consider doing it with stock models, or putting mods in it and not using FO ships. The expanded code is definitely worth it to me.
thunderfoot
29-08-2010, 05:02
This Community has always wanted a good quality Star wars based mod. Amateur, please do not allow this to fade away completely. The ARC-170 released today is an excellent example of your work. Everyone gets a little aggravated when their skill set is not up to the task of making what one sees so clearly in one's mind. This does not mean the skills will not improve or mature. So, go do something else and give the A2 stuff a rest for a bit. When you're ready, you'll come back to this. If there is anything I've released anywhere which will assist you successfully completing this project, then by all means use it.
lol, yeah, can you imagine how I felt when I found out that Thunderfoot-The-Great was making a bsg mod too? How am I supposed to compare to that.:p Though, I doubt it will get much attention, or be as good as thunderfoots, That is not my goal. My goal it to make a couple strangers happy, and to meet my own expectations, and maybe even surpass them. At the same time, however, because it isn't goodenough, is no reason to kill your mod. If its not to where you want it, keep going, expand it. Don't be daunted by the thought of maybe using FO. There are plenty of us here to help make it work. Take a break, get some ideas, maybe even recruit some buddys to help, but never give up.
Never let the mod win!:naughty:
One more point with FO. If you were to use it, I would really just get rid of all models, most of the odfs, ect, and start from scratch. Add your ships in, (look up the changed stock lines) and just get what you have to work, and then expand from there. If you were to need any help at all, or direction on what to get-rid of, I am always glad to help, and I know some people who could help as well.
This Community has always wanted a good quality Star wars based mod. Amateur, please do not allow this to fade away completely.
Don't intend to sir! Just taking a break to work on some Homeworld bits. When I return to a galaxy far, far away then I'll be ready to make some proper textures
Glad you liked the ARC. I've got the BTL-B textured and ready now so I shall zip that up in a bit.
Never let the mod win!
Good advice and something I'm doing here. It became a matter of supreme effort to even load up the list of things to do, let alone actually start working on them. The fact that I could make the meshes was countered by the problems that texturing involved.
One last point on FO is that when I get around to doing my personal mod I'm going to be using it. That way I can learn the ropes and have some knowledge for when I come back to Clone Assault in a few months/years/decades :lol:
Expect questions on the coding to appear quite soon :D
thunderfoot
29-08-2010, 06:30
lol, yeah, can you imagine how I felt when I found out Thunderfoot-The-Great was making a BSG mod too? How am I supposed to compare to that.:p"Thunderfoot The Great?" Wherever did you get this ridiculous idea I am some sort of modding god? lol. I can think of at least five or six people who think I am the sorriest excuse for a modder and human being anyone has ever met. And they'll not be bashful at all about sharing their opinion of me with anyone who'll stop long enough to listen. Besides, I have never viewed your mod and mine as being competitors. This is silly because you've got some things I'd like very much to be able to do or have(Like a really, really good Valk model and texture. Yup! I do have spies everywhere!)
Never let the mod win!:naughty:As sage a piece of wisdom as I've ever heard anywhere.
Lol, I was just joking, but it would still be hard for me to compare one of my mods to one of yours. Mine are much smaller in scale. You also have experience on your side.:sweat:
Wait, I has no valkyrie.:silence: I have mike's with some texture mods, but it is still that one. I would like a better one aswell.:sweat:
//Edited.
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