Classification of Starships [Archive] - MSFC

F-Bobby

03-10-2007, 10:35

This is a debate that was started in one of the RPG threads. I figured it deserved its own. The initial dispute was about how to Classify the Excelsior class. I belive it shoudl be classified as a Medium or possibly a Heavy cruiser. Majestic and others feel it should be classified as a light cruiser. I wanna see what other people think on the subject.

SO heres my breakdown of classifications of classs of federation ships

SCOUT/SCIENCE
Oberth
Nova
DESTROYER
Defiant
Centaur
LIGHT CRUISER
Sabre
Miranda
Soyuz
Norway
MEDIUM CRUISER
Excelsior
Intrepid
Steamrunner
Yeager (the kitbash of Voyager and the Maquis ship seen in the background of DS9 occasionally)
HEAVY CRUISER
New Orleans (also classified as a Frigate)
Excelsior (Refit [think the Lakota])
Akira
Nebula
Ambassador
BATTLE CRUISER
Galaxy
Sovereign
Prometheus

Borg_Queen

03-10-2007, 10:42

I totally agree with that classification of ships. :)

Knight

03-10-2007, 10:47

i really hate how the defiant gets classified in everything as a destroyer. they even said in the first episode it was in on deep space nine it was designed specifically as a borg battling battleship...

I tend to think of the Excelsior as a heavy cruiser - it was designed primarily as a battleship in its day, as the design is now 80 years old in the chronology, its been reclassified, but still capable of takin an absolute beating.

Majestic

03-10-2007, 17:32

Its really all personal preference. I honestly believe the Excelsior is a Light Cruiser, the Miranda as a destroyer or heavy frigate, Norway as a destroyer, Akira as a heavy cruiser, Ambassador as a medium cruiser, sabre as a frigate or destroyer, Defiant as a light to medium cruiser, Intrepid as a light cruiser, Nebula, Galaxy, Sovereign as a battleship etc.

But in the end it's all personal; preference. I just can't see a 100 year old design being a medium or heavy cruiser, they still make up the backbone of the fleet but compared to the Akira the Excelsior is obviously a light cruiser in my opinion.

Now as a Admin, I don't want to see any framing in here, everyone has their opinion and are entitled to it.

Paulhanselluk

04-10-2007, 09:36

I was always of the mind that the gaxlay class (and bigger) was a Dreadnought. and that the defiant even with its size fell under the catagory Destroyer, I would even go as far to say that the Excelisor class is a frigate, while the older ships (ie miranda) are cruisers ......

F-Bobby

04-10-2007, 10:11

well see i think the problem is is that people have different ideas of what these classifications are. What I consider a Frigate, other people might consider a medium cruiser. thats why everyone can have arguements for where they think a ship should be.

Steven Kodaly

04-10-2007, 10:32

F-Bobby, you've got a point - nobody really knows what a ship classification consists of. So, how about we cook up a classification system for our use? Perhaps we should consider vessels by their mass or displacement - or instead by their length.

Regardless, let's at least settle on a list of names of ship categorizations. Your list, F-Bobby, is interesting, as I was unaware that there was such thing as a "medium cruiser." As I understand it, the terms "light cruiser" and "heavy cruiser" come from the associated acronyms, "CL" and "CA" respectively. CL is "Cruiser, Light," whereas CA is "Cruiser, Armored." The armored cruiser is, obviously, the "heavy" cruiser. So, where does "medium cruiser" come from?

Please bear in mind that my list is shamelessly cribbed from David Weber's Honor Harrington novels:

Frigate
Destroyer
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battle Cruiser (Possibly one word)
Battleship
Dreadnaught (Alternate spelling)
Superdreadnaught (Alternate spelling)

Now, Weber classifies his warships generally by weight (or is that displacement?) - thus, vessels in a certain weight range are considered light cruisers, whereas vessels in the next weight range are considered heavy cruisers, regardless of a ship's mission. If we choose to adopt a system such as this, who can suggest weight ranges for our ship classifications?

Knight

04-10-2007, 11:09

does it work that way when going by mass though?
For example, in Andromeda, the ship is classed as a battleship (though some episodes refer to it as a heavy cruiser) yet uses a GFG lens to lower its mass for faster speeds/slipstream.

its still a battleship, but the weight isnt constantly that of a battleship is what im getting at...

F-Bobby

04-10-2007, 11:15

Knight

04-10-2007, 11:22

I belive the way that the classify them is Not just by mass, but also by manuverability and firepower.

Dreadnaughts are ususally though of as slower moving heavily armored ships
Frigates are ususally thought of as Fast moving lighty armored but heavily armed ships
Cruisers are done in the same way, a light cruiser will ususally be more manuverable but it also more lighty armed then a heavy cruiser.
its all subjective. that why it is soo hard to classify.

I also think that the Defiant being labled as a destroyer is a good choice as it is very small and quick and very heavily armed and meant for one thing. fighting.

thatd work... i tend to class battleships as anything with a lot of firepower.

for me, the defiant escapes definition... yes, its small, fast and maneuverable, which wud make it a destroyer, but its also very heavily armed for its size - and in its first appearance, as i said earlier, was labelled as a battleship by Sisko

F-Bobby

04-10-2007, 12:14

Knight

04-10-2007, 12:17

F-Bobby

04-10-2007, 12:40

lol. oops. my bad.

in my defence, its been a long time since i saw that episode. or any ds9 for that matter

well why not?! lol I need to get seasons 3, 4, and 7. there are those few choice episodes i really wanna see.

Knight

04-10-2007, 12:44

well why not?! lol I need to get seasons 3, 4, and 7. there are those few choice episodes i really wanna see.

because my tv reception is really bad so i cant always get the channels showing reruns, and i didnt fancy shelling out hordes of money for the DVD's lol?

F-Bobby

04-10-2007, 13:02

because my tv reception is really bad so i cant always get the channels showing reruns, and i didnt fancy shelling out hordes of money for the DVD's lol?

Ever heard of Bit Torrent? Ya can download the WHOLE series.. its only 50 Gigis of space....

Knight

04-10-2007, 13:09

Ever heard of Bit Torrent? Ya can download the WHOLE series.. its only 50 Gigis of space....

2Mb line 3 miles from the exchange that isnt always that reliable because its in semi constant use playin halo 3 from 2 xboxs - mine and my brothers lol.

Dontai

04-10-2007, 17:39

Excelsior

TMP - Battle ship

TNG era - Heavy cruiser

DS9 - light cruiser

future - useless

Majestic

04-10-2007, 18:30

Excelsior

TMP - Battle ship

TNG era - Heavy cruiser

DS9 - light cruiser

future - useless

I think that sums it up pretty well according to my own personal views.

Also on the issue of medium cruiser, I really don't think it exists, was just adopted for video games like Armada, I only used it in YY for the Artillery ships as I don't like calling them Artillery cruisers. :lol:

CrazyFrog1903

05-10-2007, 01:01

Excelsior

TMP - Battle ship

TNG era - Heavy cruiser

DS9 - light cruiser

future - useless

I agree with that. Although maybe in the future it is nothing more than a Frigate or cargo ship...maybe even a shuttle or personal vessel for an admiral. Then again in the future it could be a science vessel.

Lord_Trekie

05-10-2007, 02:39

I heard there's a collectors edition of all the TNG DVD's being released for approx $440... Check out Star Trek . com for more, I think they've got a little header on the main page about it...

As someone who's played the Starfleet Command games way too much, I think of the Excelsior as a Battlecruiser 90% of the time, a Heavy Cruiser the other 10% of the time. It out masses an Intrepid, and with 24th century tech I'm sure it could take on an Intrepid and probably win... (not an invitation to re-open any version of 'Voyager is the best Fed ship ever because of the torpedoes and armor...)

Paulhanselluk

08-10-2007, 05:44

You may think iam daft, but why dont you just make up your classification list ?

Steven Kodaly

10-10-2007, 07:23

You may think iam daft, but why dont you just make up your classification list ?

Sounds like a plan.

So, I see terms such as "Science Ship" being thrown about; these sound suspiciously like mission classification, as opposed to hull type. How about we make a list of missions:

Science
Exploratory
War
Freight/Transport

Note: many vessels have an overlap in mission suitability; for instance, the Galaxy class starship is considered by some to be an 'Explorer,' but it is by no means considered to be a lightweight in ship-to-ship combat, allowing it to be classified as a 'Warship.' Further, 'Science' and 'Exploratory' may or may not be effectively synonymous mission designations.

Now, warships ('War' mission) would allow for additional specification:
Short range
Long range
Indirect fire (Space-borne artillery)
Carrier
Assault (Combat transport, a la Iwo Jima class)

I'm sure that there are more missions and sub-missions for vessels in Star Trek. Would someone care to add to the list? We can always remove something if it's unsuitable.

Knight, to address your question, do vessels in Star Trek have a tendency to alter their mass? However, if you would prefer, let us assume that mass or displacement of vessels is measured when the vessel is empty and at rest relative to the planet Earth.

Now, are there any suggestions for mass and/or displacement measurements to use in breaking ships down by hull type (Light cruiser, heavy cruiser, battleship, etc.) or should I pull some numbers out of the air and see where vessels fall?

Majestic

10-10-2007, 17:24

Common hull types are:

Freighter
Frigate
Corvette
Cutter
Destroyer
Cruiser (Light and Heavy)
Battlecruiser
Dreadnaught
Battleship

There are a few more but they are the main ones.

Syf

11-10-2007, 02:01

This would be a great thread to use to develope a specific Class list that is generally excepted amoung those it matters to.

People often forget classes like Juggernaut, corvette, to mention a few used in history. Also, it can open the door to a bigger class list.

Kosh Naranek

07-11-2007, 06:59

actually He called it a Warship. Which is just a term for pretty much any ship that has guns on it lol. Actually to be perfectly honest he said it was Officially classified as an Escort, unofficially was a warship.

and as far as i can see there are no real Starfleet ships that can be classified as a dreadnaught. Maybe if the Excalibur class was canon that could get classified as one, but then again that would more likely be classified as a battleship.

IMHO, the Galaxy-X can be classified as a Federation dreadnaught if you only use on-screen stuff. Though, there was the TOS/TMP (would have to check which) Dreadnaught class and the TOS era Federation class (though, according to the descriptions, both may be, in fact, the same class, Federation), both were in various books and, according to my research, the Entente mentioned in dialouge in the first ST movie was supposed to be Federation class.

As for ship classification, I use this list, in no particular order:

Fighter
Attack Fighter
Assault Fighter
Light Fighter
Medium Fighter
Heavy Fighter
Recon Fighter
Stealth Fighter
Fighter-Bomber
Stealth Bomber
Bomber
Attack Bomber
Assault Bomber
Light Bomber
Medium Bomber
Heavy Bomber
Recon Bomber
Shuttlepod
Shuttle
Combat Shuttle
Runabout
Light Scout
Medium Scout
Heavy Scout
Scout
Interceptor
Light Cruiser
Medium Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Attack Cruiser
Assault Cruiser
Cruiser
Long-Range Tactical Cruiser
Tactical Cruiser
Command Cruiser
Battlecruiser
Warcruiser
Dreadnaught
Tactical Dreadnaugt
Fast Dreadnaught
Light Dreadnaught
Medium Dreadnaught
Heavy Dreadnaught
Command Dreadnaught
Juggernaut
Tactical Juggernaut
Fast Juggernaut
Light Juggernaut
Medium Juggernaut
Heavy Juggernaut
Command Juggernaut
Battleship
Warship
Freighter
Transport
Escape Pod
Galactic Explorer
Explorer
Destroyer
Monitor
Escort
Frigate
Blockade Runner
Cargo Drone
Courier
Raider
Science Vessel
Surveyor
Supply Ship
Tanker
Tug
Corsair
Carrier
Light Carrier
Medium Carrier
Heavy Carrier
Command Carrier
Battle Carrier
War Carrier
Escort Carrier
Tactical Carrier
Star Carrier
Hospital Ship

Note: This isn't the full list. I just touched on a few big labels in the above.

Majestic

07-11-2007, 10:02

Quite a list, I always have a pretty narrow list myself, I rarely use heavy destroyer or all the scout designations. I mainly use the following.

Fighter
Bomber
Shuttle
Surveyor
Courier
Corvette
Frigate
Monitor
Cutter
Gunship
Destroyer
Escort
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Carrier
Battlecruiser
Dreadnaught
Battleship
Juggernaut (Rarely)

Then the various freighters, transports, tenders, construction rigs etc

I rarely use anything more that was I just posted above as pretty much any ship can be categorised into one of those spots.

Kosh Naranek

07-11-2007, 18:05

I actually want cross-canon for my list as, IMHO, only basing a list off of a single canon, non-canon, and/or fanon would make it incomplete.

Oh, and I forgot to put these ones in my list:

Worldship
Gunship
Gunboat
Plant Killer
Star Killer
Mobile Battlestation
Mobile Warstation

That's all I've got for now.

Lord_Trekie

08-11-2007, 05:12

LOL, your list has more than mine would if I had a phsyical list Majestic.

I think mine goes something like (not counting non-combat vessels):

Shuttle
Fighter
Runabout
Frigate
Destroyer
Escort
Light Cruiser
Heavy Cruiser
Battle Cruiser
Battleship

Jasoneagle

11-08-2008, 12:43

aside from just naming them hows about we use modern day military classification to class the ship?

if one looks at the reality of it all the Navies as well as the Air Forces of the World have and use the same classing system for their ships.

you have (just to name a few)

carrier - Self explanatory

battleship - a large, heavily armored warship with a main battery consisting of the largest calibre of guns. Battleships are larger, better armed, and better armored than cruisers and destroyers.

battlecruiser - large warship developed as the successor to the armoured cruisers

cruiser - large type of warship intended for individual raiding and protection missions

destroyer - fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet, convoy or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range but powerful attackers

frigate - light armament, built for speed and maneuverability

Combat Logistics (Support ships)

and each ship class can further be broken down into more specific types.

Wheller

12-08-2008, 15:25

i feel that i must comment on this. in Cannon Trek the federation uses the General Hull types:

Escort (Defiant)
Frigate (New Orleans)
Light Cruiser (Miranda Class)
Heavy Cruiser (Constitution Class, Akira Class, Ambassador Class)
Explorer (Galaxy, Sovereign, Nebula and Excelsior [Original production],)

They tend to stick away from the Classifications like Destroyer, Battleship and Dreadnought. officially, anyway,

by now i think the Excelsior could be considered a Heavy Cruiser,

Atlantis

12-08-2008, 18:34

Here's my thoughts, based on the list in the first post.

Oberth - Doesn't count, technically it shouldn't be a StarFleet vessel, as it's a science-only ship, and StarFleet is a military organisation.

Nova - Frigate FF
Defiant - Destroyer Gunship DDG
Centaur - Light Destroyer DDL
Sabre - Heavy Frigate FFH
Miranda - Heavy Frigate FFH
Soyuz - Destroyer Carrier DDV
Norway - Destroyer DD
Excelsior - Light Cruiser CL
Intrepid - Light Scout Cruiser CLS
Steamrunner - Armoured (Heavy) Cruiser CA
Yeager - Auxiliary Light Cruiser (It seems more of a military transport than anything else) AxCL
New Orleans - Light Torpedo Cruiser CLT
Excelsior (Refit) - Advanced Light Cruiser (It's the same frame as the normal Excelsior, so it's going to have to be) CL+
Akira - Battle Cruiser/Carrier BCV
Nebula - Battle Cruiser BC
Ambassador - Heavy Cruiser CA
Galaxy - Command Cruiser CC
Sovereign - Dreadnought DN
Prometheus - Perimeter-Action Vessel PA

Aerilon

25-08-2008, 21:10

Well, whilst I can't give a detailed list of every ship avaliable, I can give people a list of the Federation starships I am using in Zero Hour, and the classifications I am giving them. If anything, it would give people an idea of how I'd class ships.

Achilles Class - Battleship
Akira Class - Heavy Cruiser
Ambassador Class - Exploration Vessel (I'd say Heavy Cruiser during the TMP-era)
Constellation Class - Corvette (I'd say Frigate during the TMP-era)
Constitution Class - Corvette
Defiant Class - Escort
Excelsior Class - Medium Cruiser
Galaxy Class - Exploration Vessel
Intrepid Class - Light Cruiser
Miranda Class - Corvette (I'd say Destroyer during the TMP-era)
Nebula Class - Survey Ship
Norway Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser
Sabre Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser
Sovereign Class - Exploration Vessel
Steamrunner Class - Light 'Assault' Cruiser

I notice I've used "Exploration Vessel" a few times. These would be ships that aren't necessarily armed to the teeth, but are quite powerful, yet, at the same time, weren't really built for combat.

Borg_Queen

25-08-2008, 21:18

I may point out that the Sovereign is indeed built for combat as that class is one of the few that are built first and foremost to combat the Borg. :wink:

Aerilon

25-08-2008, 21:37

Well, within Zero Hour, she wasn't built for 'combat' but rather exploration. Don't worry, she wont be weak. :wink:

StarBlade

25-08-2008, 23:54

technically it shouldn't be a StarFleet vessel, as it's a science-only ship, and StarFleet is a military organisation.

I couldn't disagree more. Starfleet's very strength is its role as an exploratory body, NOT just a military organization. Theirs is a dual role, defense and science working together. It creates conflict, but it also creates unique opportunity. Starfleet isn't simply a "space navy". It has to be more than that, by design.

:D

Atlantis

26-08-2008, 00:15

Then why are science vessels civilian?
The Tsiolkowski, for example, was not a StarFleet vessel.
And that woman Kirk brought back from 1986 (ST4), she joined a science vessel which was non-StarFleet.

I agree that StarFleet does take on a lot of science and exploration work as opposed to being JUST military. But it is primarily a military organisation. It has a military command structure, military technology, etc. All races incorporate science and exploration into their militaries, the Federation just does it more so to be "morally superior".

Either way, the Oberth IS just a science vessel, it has no military function (it can't even be used as ELINT support), and therefore can not have a military designation.
The only Oberth we saw which was being run by a StarFleet crew was the USS Grissom, on a joint mission with civilian scientists (much like the Reliant was)... and even that was only because it was a classified mission. Normal Oberths are run by civilian crews, not StarFleet.

Borg_Queen

26-08-2008, 00:39

Wheller

26-08-2008, 02:17

One thing, Atlantis; Starfleet has naval command structure and naval technology, etc. Not military. :wink: In military the highest ranks are generals, while in naval (and Starfleet) it's the admirals.
Remember that Picard among others said that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, but a naval one. :wink:

you forget that a navy IS part of a Military. David Marcus (James T. Kirks son.) even referred to starfleet as the military in the Wrath of Khan. While Starfleet is a Military organization, it is quite different then the military's of today.

Edit: i would also like to say that the Oberth Class, while a Science Vessel used by civilians, also happens to be a Scout craft used by Starfleet. the Oberth was built for use by Starfleet, but eventually found its way into the hands of Civilians.

Borg_Queen

26-08-2008, 02:27

you forget that a navy IS part of a Military. David Marcus (James T. Kirks son.) even referred to starfleet as the military in the Wrath of Khan. While Starfleet is a Military organization, it is quite different then the military's of today.

Edit: i would also like to say that the Oberth Class, while a Science Vessel used by civilians, also happens to be a Scout craft used by Starfleet. the Oberth was built for use by Starfleet, but eventually found its way into the hands of Civilians.

David is the only one that has called Starfleet for military. I even remember Archer yelling at the MACOs saying that Starfleet don't need any military organization as Starfleet is not military in nature, but naval. So, even if the Navy and the military is similar, they are also different.

IE. military is offensive in nature, navy is exploring and defensive only in nature. :wink: But if we shall discuss this further I recommend a new thread to avoid going off topic. :lol:

Atlantis

26-08-2008, 02:51

Well it's not really off-topic (though it would better suit it's own thread, I agree). It's about whether Starships can be given military designations, as much as anything.

I refer you to Wikipedia: Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy)
The very first sentence of this article states that the navy is a branch of the military.

What Borg_Queen describes as "the military" is actually "the army".

I do agree about what Archer said though, but it does confuse the issue a lot. =/

Back on topic though. Wheller, how can the Oberth be a Scout? It's almost never sent out on exploratory missions (Starfleet uses larger ships as explorers); in fact it's almost always sent to stars and phenomena which have already been charted, to study them. It's a survey vessel, not a scout.

Wheller

26-08-2008, 03:54

Memory Alpha refers to the Oberth Class as a Scout/science vessel/transport.

thats what i was going on.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Oberth_class

StarBlade

26-08-2008, 06:23

The only Oberth we saw which was being run by a StarFleet crew was the USS Grissom, on a joint mission with civilian scientists (much like the Reliant was)... and even that was only because it was a classified mission. Normal Oberths are run by civilian crews, not StarFleet.

What about the Pegasus? Admittedly the Pegasus was a testbed for illegal and top-secret phase cloaking technology but it still had a Starfleet crew. Other ships come to mind, like the Biko, Cochrane and other Oberths that were maybe just in the wrong place doing the wrong kind of research, or perhaps simply transferring crew or supplies. (VIP and ambassadorial transport tended to be reserved for Excelsiors and other such vessels.)

Not only that, but if Oberth class starships are so dispensible and non-Starfleet, how does that justify their designing and deploying Nova class starships to take over in the roles the Oberth class provided for Starfleet? Again, admittedly the Nova is leaps and bounds ahead of the Oberth, but the Oberth was in continuous use by Starfleet for (if you take the Grissom's registry literally) pretty much the entire existence of the United Federation of Planets.

Oberths could easily fill a hundred different roles, just like Mirandas and Nebulas, and even Excelsiors. I think it's abundantly clear that they have, and continue to do so, but that the design is licensed for equal use between civilian and Starfleet usage. Since there are apparently no onboard armaments of any kind, that's an easy choice to make.

But whatever it is, Oberths do serve a purpose, a Starfleet-operated scientific purpose at that. Just because the rank structures work in a military fashion doesn't imply a straight ****ysis one to another. We haven't seen enough, for all the Trek that's been filmed, to get a true sense of what the relationships are like between science and defense from an admiral's point of view. All we get are covert-ops cloak and dagger stuff and speculative-fantastical scientific applications.

Where I think the discussion breaks down is in the context of most games --A2, BC, Legacy, SFC and the like-- where the Oberth is, literally, useless unless specially armed. And since we know from STIII that the Grissom was unarmed, and thus defenseless against a few Klingon torpedoes, that tradition of obsolescence somehow has carried right on through to Wolf 359 (where one was among the wreckage-- poor devils) until probably the Dominion War. Any admiral ordering an Oberth class starship pretty much ANYWHERE has to know right away that they're of limited use tactically unless they're researching something planetside, in which case at least there'll be rocks on board to throw at an adversary. But for Starfleet to treat its crews as dispensible in any context doesn't make any sense given the heavy weight placed upon the loss of any ship in the storytelling.

Clearly they had some use, we just can't say for sure what it would be since our context is separate from Starfleet's.

:D

Borg_Queen

26-08-2008, 06:38

One more thing about Oberths; We saw an Oberth with at least one phaser array in First Contact as it fired on the Cube with a phaser-beam. :wink:

Atlantis

26-08-2008, 07:35

the Pegasus was a testbed for illegal and top-secret phase cloaking technology

Exactly. The Oberth has a HUGE science lab slung underneath it, perfect for testing new technologies inside.

Other ships come to mind, like the Biko, Cochrane and other Oberths that were maybe just in the wrong place doing the wrong kind of research, or perhaps simply transferring crew or supplies. (VIP and ambassadorial transport tended to be reserved for Excelsiors and other such vessels.)

Well the Cochrane could well have been there to do research on various things in the Bajor sector. There's no evidence it was a StarFleet vessel.

The Biko... I can't remember.

The Vico and Tsiolkowski were definitely civilian-crewed, from what I remember.

The only times an Oberth has been definitely known to have a StarFleet crew were the USS Oberth and USS Yosemite... The Oberth was (for some reason) going to be in Operation Retrieve, and we saw guys in StarFleet uniforms being beamed from the Yosemite...

Don't misinterpret my use of the word "civilian". I am still talking Federation, just a different branch.

Not only that, but if Oberth class starships are so dispensible and non-Starfleet, how does that justify their designing and deploying Nova class starships to take over in the roles the Oberth class provided for Starfleet? Again, admittedly the Nova is leaps and bounds ahead of the Oberth, but the Oberth was in continuous use by Starfleet for (if you take the Grissom's registry literally) pretty much the entire existence of the United Federation of Planets.

Where's the evidence that the Nova does replace the Oberth? From what I've seen onscreen, it seems that the Nova is a scout ship / frigate. Fast, long-ranged, lightly-armed (but not unarmed). It is more designed to go ahead of fleets, searching and exploring.

One more thing about Oberths; We saw an Oberth with at least one phaser array in First Contact as it fired on the Cube with a phaser-beam. :wink:

We also saw the Millennium Falcon... see my point? =P

--

What I'm saying is that scientific missions are undertaken by the Federation Science Council, which is outside StarFleet (and in many ways, above StarFleet). For the Federation to work effectively, all these aspects of the Federation have to work well together, but they are most certainly NOT all one entity.

Could it be that Oberth-class ships are captained and crewed (minimal officers) by StarFleet, while most of the crew are civilian scientists? (compromise)

Wheller

26-08-2008, 07:39

The Biko was the ship with that kid who imitated Data, yes? Was there any evidence this was a Starfleet-crewed ship, and not a civilian science research mission?

Don't misinterpret my use of the word "civilian". I am still talking Federation, just a different branch.

Actually that Ship was the SS Vico. the USS Biko was a starfleet Supply ship

Atlantis

26-08-2008, 07:41

****it, you replied before I could edit to cover up my blunder =P

Wheller

26-08-2008, 07:50

****it, you replied before I could edit to cover up my blunder =P

of course, wouldn't want you to get away with it now would i ? :p

Borg_Queen

26-08-2008, 08:06

We also saw the Millennium Falcon... see my point? =P

Not exactly, I know we see the Millennium Falcon, but that doesn't mean that there are no Oberths firing at that Cube. Because there is one Oberth that does that.

I do not say the Oberth is Starfleet or not, I just point out that the Oberth is not unarmed, at least not the latest ones.

Aerilon

26-08-2008, 08:25

Chances are, the Oberth are actually a Starfleet ship, though Starfleet also builds them for civilian purposes too. Ultimately, she'd serve as a short range science ship, but still, I believe her to be a Starfleet vessel.

In regards to the Oberth having weapons, they probably do, though only Phasers. The Grissom probably didn't fire any as she was taken by surprise and didn't have chance to arm them. The Oberth in First Contact did however.

Other Oberth's has Starfleet personnel working on them. The Pegasus for example, was testing out that new Phase Cloak. It seems a little stupid that anyone would construct a ship without any weapons what so ever. Granted the Oberth is small, but I expect she has weapons, just not too many of them.

Even multiple freighters (Cardassian ones at least) have Disruptors. I know this was a modified vessel, but even so, if a Freighter of the Cardassian union is going to have weapons, then a science ship from Starfleet would sure have them. No?

StarBlade

26-08-2008, 08:36

Well the Cochrane could well have been there to do research on various things in the Bajor sector. There's no evidence it was a StarFleet vessel.

There's no evidence it wasn't, either. At this point, the problem with continuing this discussion is that you can say "yes" and I can say "no" and we go around in circles.

By the same token, using the Falcon's appearance in FC to disprove the existence of an Oberth very plainly firing its guns in anger brings us around to the same circling of "yes" and "no". And my source on the Nova being the Oberth's replacement is the Encyclopedia, although I've seen it elsewhere. You can dismiss that, too, if you'd like, but the fact remains we're not the only ones trying to figure out exactly why the Oberth is continuing its involvement in Starfleet's daily operations.

The real reason, underlying everything else, is that clearly the Grissom was expensive to build and expensive to replace, and there they were, week after week, running into Oberths all throughout TNG. We're bending observations and conjectures to meet our needs in both directions.

I like your compromise. No reason there couldn't be civilian scientists, maybe even ex-Starfleet, on a ship operated and engineered and captained by Starfleet. They could be strictly civilian, with merchant or even independent non-merch crews aboard. Appropriate training to operate the engines and shields and such could be offered to either, since the systems are ancient by TNG standards. (I use the term "Starfleet", for the record, to refer to Starfleet only. I don't use it interchangeably with the Federation, as some do.)

Ash's point is a valid one, though-- it's possible the Grissom *was* armed but didn't have time to power its weapons. It's hard to believe that Starfleet would put so much effort into, say, the Miranda class or Excelsior class, and their armaments, only to turn around and continue putting trained crews, and material investments, not to mention potentially sensitive experimental material, into unarmed tinkertoy starships just to watch 'em die.

And I'll leave it at that.

:D

Eisenhower

31-12-2010, 17:47

I tend to view ship classes from the standpoint of firepower, ship armor and overall size, and then maybe speed. The Defiant is so unusual, really its in a class all its own since there is no comparable ship in any of the other star trek races. Size wise though the Dominion bug and Klingon bird of prey are pretty much the only ships the same size or slightly bigger than the defiant. Starfleet basically took the weapons,engines, and armor of a battlecruiser and put it into the body of a destroyer. It would be like if the Klingons put Vorcha class weaponary and armor on a bird prey. Gul Dukat once called the Defiant, a ship smaller than a miranda, the most heavily armed warship in the Quadrant which when you think about it probably is. The defiant had more **** firepower than a Galaxy class starship for crying out loud! pulse phasers, regular phaser, photon and quantum torpedos, and don't forget the ablative armor so it can fight with its shields down. That's more firepower than any other federation ship except a sovereign or maybe a Prometheus.

Any way back to classification. I tend to view dreadnoughts as ships that focus entirely on size, firepower and armor over speed and maneuverability. The Dominion Dreadnought is the quintessential ship of this class to me. This ship is **** near a mobile space station when it comes to just pure size alone. And its this reason that the Galaxy class doesn't hold up under this definition as it focuses more on speed and maneuverability than pure firepower ,and even armor wise the Galaxy class has always appeared to me as having a "glass jaw". I would define ships like the Galaxy refit, Excelsior refit, Sovereign, and Prometheus as battlecruisers. Ships that have a balance of both weapons and speed.

Majestic

31-12-2010, 20:06

I personally nowadays go by the hull and purpose of a vessel. So the size and what it's meant to do such as a support, patrol, carrier etc.

I mainly go by Naval standards and terminology and hence from smallest to largest:

Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battlecruiser
Battleship|Dreadnought

Eisenhower

05-01-2011, 15:15

Majestic

05-01-2011, 15:38

Where does the Defiant fit in that classification?

I always put her as a destroyer.

Starfox1701

05-01-2011, 16:03

I'd say heavy gunnship but that is just me:D

Majestic

05-01-2011, 16:35

Everyone has their own spot for many ships, the Defiant is the best example of it. I think she is way over-powered but then again so was Voyager, whom was classified as a light cruiser. A gun-ship is a very good classification for her and in fact that was what I was going to use her for if I made a Federation side to COE, but I doubt that will be happening now.

Eisenhower

06-01-2011, 05:28

I think she is way over-powered but then again so was Voyager, whom was classified as a light cruiser. Voyager was ridiculously over powered compared to any other ship! lol But with the Defiant it actually makes sense since its supposed to be a badass Federation warship. Makes it kinda difficult to create a reasonable, balanced build of the ship in armada though. In contrast, I've always felt the Galaxy class was horribly underpowered in TNG/DS9. The federation flagship destroyed by a outdated bird of prey, I mean really, this is the best the writers could come up with! The Enterprise C on the other hand was taken down by 4 Romulan Warbirds!

SciFiFan

06-01-2011, 06:15

For me it depends on the time frame. In Kirks time, the Excelsior would be a battlecruiser as the Constitution was a Heavy Cruiser. In Picard's time, it would be a light to medium cruiser and one of the Duras sisters refered to the Enterprise as " a Galaxy Class battle cruiser" in Generations.

Eisenhower

06-01-2011, 08:18

For me it depends on the time frame

I guess that's important to note too, cause in Wrath of Khan a constitution class ship was getting wrecked by a Miranda which is now considered cannon fodder.

Hellkite

06-01-2011, 17:57

"She may have flaws, but she has teeth"

- Benjamin Sisko,

She is overpowered officially designated an escort, although unofficially a warship, in other words she is a Frigate with the armaments of a medium cruiser

The Defiant-class was specifically designed to counter the Borg. Soon after the first vessel was completed however several design flaws caused Starfleet to suspend the project. Among the flaws was the fact that the Defiant's engines were overpowered relative to the size of the ship – so much so that the Defiant nearly "tore itself apart" during its shakedown cruise

Eisenhower

09-01-2011, 12:04