Transporter Morality

[CABAL]

Has anybody ever considered the morality of the transporters in Trek? The safety of the transporter is brought up several times, but they always avoid mentioning the potential moral issues of the transporter.

For instance, when they discovered that there were two Rikers, they focus on the interaction between the two Rikers, not the fact that one of them is a clone made from the other's transporter pattern and, apparently, some matter stored in a tank for when there is a transporter accident and they don't have enough to reassemble somebody.

 

[swilson0907]

That is a good point about the Transporter. It was brough up alot in Enterprise too.

Maybe the pros out weigh the cons when it comes to the transporter.

 

[Starfox1701]

I am not really sure that the people here are really ready to debate fully all the deep dark places this discution could take us. There are very real world implacations to this discusion

 

[swilson0907]

I am not really sure that the people here are really ready to debate fully all the deep dark places this discution could take us. There are very real world implacations to this discusion

I can say that I fully agree with you on that one.

 

[Avon]

By the time of Next Gen (or probably TOS as well) they apparently had all kinds of safety protocols in place. Wasn't there something like Hisenberg compensators or some such gobbledy goo.
I seem to remember someone (maybe O'brien) mentioning there hadn't been a transporter accident in hundreds of years. May have been in one of the Barclay episodes (he had transporter phsycosis)

I believe the Riker incident was some sort of fluke due to the unusual atmospheric conditions on the planet

Whats worrying, and maybe morally ambiguous is the early prototypes like on the NX01 in use before all the bugs had been worked out.

I guess, at the end of the day all technology has to start somewhere. It's a little like the scientific debate about mobile phones that have been proven to increase the risk of cancer

 

[swilson0907]

By the time of Next Gen (or probably TOS as well) they apparently had all kinds of safety protocols in place. Wasn't there something like Hisenberg compensators or some such gobbledy goo.
I seem to remember someone (maybe O'brien) mentioning there hadn't been a transporter accident in hundreds of years. May have been in one of the Barclay episodes (he had transporter phsycosis)

I believe the Riker incident was some sort of fluke due to the unusual atmospheric conditions on the planet

Whats worrying, and maybe morally ambiguous is the early prototypes like on the NX01 in use before all the bugs had been worked out.

I guess, at the end of the day all technology has to start somewhere. It's a little like the scientific debate about mobile phones that have been proven to increase the risk of cancer

Do mobile phones, I mean cell phones, cause cancer?

As for transporters, I also remember that episode where it was mentioned that there hadn't been a transporter accident for 100 years. I believe it was also said about some sort of safety protocols in the system.

I think others might be better to describe this than me though, I don't really know much about transporters.

 

[Avon]

Do mobile phones, I mean cell phones, cause cancer?

It's really a debate for another thread, but cell phones emmit RF energy which is a form of radiation. The dabate is still ongoing as to whether the levels are high enough to cause cancer. As a precaution, most places advise to keep the use to a minimum. Google it, you'd be surprised what you can learn

Going back to transporters, as well as Barclay having Tranporter Psycosis, back in TOS McCoy also feared using them. I seem to remember Kirk coming out with similar statistics that they had been proven safe for many years as well.

 

[Starfox1701]

Wasn't there something like Hisenberg compensators or some such gobbledy goo.

Well inorder to disassemble a person at the quantum partical level you have to know exactly where everything is. Hisenberg compensators make that possible.

 

[dinosaurJR]

Well inorder to disassemble a person at the quantum partical level you have to know exactly where everything is. Hisenberg compensators make that possible.

Well, by that logic, then Transporters would be really good at spotting anomalies, such as tumors etc... You know, from the cell phones...

But on a serious note - Transporter tech does bring up some interesting philosophical and moral questions...

For example, if your very molecules are scattered, their "pattern" is saved by a transporter, then you are re assembled from different particles, are you still you...? The matter that made you is completely replaced... also, most awesome pregnancy test ever...

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

I would compare it to today's car traffic. Heavy accidents do happen, caused by technical failure in some instances and by human failure in most cases.

It does not need a medical or engineering degree to imagine what happens to a car and its passengers when the velocity drops from 120kph to Zero in a fracture of a second when hitting a tree.

And even though a lot of people die in traffic, cars are widely used and driven with speeds over 5kph. (BTW: if you do not use a seatbelt and have a traffic accident like the one above, you will most likely be catapulted through your windshield and land somewhere else... chance of surival drops 300 percent)

I imagine that it is the same with Trek's transporters. Accidents do happen (and the most weird ones only happen on ships named USS Enterprise anyway) but usually it is a safe method.
However: if there is a transporter accident it will probably be fatal. Missing or freaked molecules and particles is something different than a broken skull.
Stiffneck ain't no good, can't just put a band-aid on it and Dr. Crusher needs additional qualification nin molecular biology and physics.

That there are people who are afraid to use the transporter...well... there are also people who are afraid to go by car or plane.

Well, by that logic, then Transporters would be really good at spotting anomalies, such as tumors etc... You know, from the cell phones...

It is not good enough to know where it is, you need to know WHAT it is. Tricorder, CT, MRI and blood testing for teh win!

And cancer is not traceable to cell phones... neither do cell phones disrupt medical equipment...

 

[thunderfoot]

James Blish, always one of my favorite science fiction authors, wrote a TOS based novel based upon this idea called, "Spock Must Die!". I usually find doppelganger tales to be boring and predictable. However, this one was well written. In it, the Klingons placed some sort of shield around Organia which prevented the Organians from leaving the planet. This was so the Empire could attack the Federation. Spock attempted to beam down to Organia and the transporter beam was reflected back by the Klingon shield to Enterprise's Transporter Room. Voila! Two Spocks just like that. I won't spoil any more of the story for anyone. It certainly raised some interesting questions about transporters and the TOS setting.

 

[Megadroid]

For example, if your very molecules are scattered, their "pattern" is saved by a transporter, then you are re assembled from different particles, are you still you...?

This is why I don't really want to be transported, if we get to that stage in my lifetime. An interesting answer to that question is that it is both yourself and not yourself - that is the person that was reassembled may not be a direct continuation of the original, but is technically just as "valid" as the original. Normal humans undergo a constant change, so you could argue that you aren't the same "instance" of yourself as you were a year ago, or even that instances of yourself are discarded and replaced all the time.

The moral issues only really affect the person who is going to be transported - it depends if they believe that it is important to maintain a continuous existence. Whether one person ceases to exist and another person identical in every way is created affects the "beamed" person the most; externally there would be no perceivable difference.

Personally I'm not sure if I believe in a soul as such, but I'd rather not risk it - I'll just take the shuttle.

Apparently the Federation got over this at some point; in the TNG episode where some alien took over Picard and beamed into a nebula or something, they used an old Picard pattern to save him. He was a bit confused, Deanna said "oh, it's an old pattern so he doesn't know what happened" and everyone is fine with that.

 

[Dan1025]

As I understand it though, you aren't reassembled from 'different particles' are you? I thought the transporter takes you apart molecule by molecule, then sends your molecules through subspace, and then puts you back together in the exact same order at your destination (which is why the transporter requires so much computer memory and so many failsafes; so you always get put back together in the same order/none of your molecules get lost).

If it were explained to me properly by someone in the 24th century who knows how it all works, and I understood how it does what it does (at least on a basic level) then I'd probably be okay with it...probably

After all the stargate (different universe I know) does much the same; takes you apart at the molecular level at your point of departure/origin, and then reassembles you at your destination exactly the same as you were when you stepped through the gate on the other side.

Whether the reassembled you is still 'you' e.t.c, is a level of metaphysics that I don't think I'm really qualified (let alone awake enough lol) to answer one way or another to be honest.

 

[CABAL]

As I understand it though, you aren't reassembled from 'different particles' are you? I thought the transporter takes you apart molecule by molecule, then sends your molecules through subspace, and then puts you back together in the exact same order at your destination (which is why the transporter requires so much computer memory and so many failsafes; so you always get put back together in the same order/none of your molecules get lost).

That seems to be more of a general rule than a definite fact. Going back to the Riker example, in order for there to be two of them, extra matter had to come from somewhere. Otherwise, we can safely assume that there would either be just one Riker or there would have been two halves of Riker, which would not be pretty. We can deduce that one of the failsafes is that if there is a problem and not all of the matter reaches the pad, then additional matter is pulled from a reserve to complete the transported organism or object.

 

[swilson0907]

That seems to be more of a general rule than a definite fact. Going back to the Riker example, in order for there to be two of them, extra matter had to come from somewhere. Otherwise, we can safely assume that there would either be just one Riker or there would have been two halves of Riker, which would not be pretty. We can deduce that one of the failsafes is that if there is a problem and not all of the matter reaches the pad, then additional matter is pulled from a reserve to complete the transported organism or object.

I would have to agree with both your original quote and also what you replied about it.

What I mean is that I have to agree with you about the use of additional matter.

 

[thunderfoot]

"I refuse to have my molecules scattered all over the place by that dadblasted machine again!"

- ADM Dr. Leonard H. McCoy, FACs, Starfleet, retired.

Still, wouldn't a transporter be a wonderful cure for a hangover? Just adjust the pattern buffer, add a little extra water, and set the filters to remove the alcohol and all the metabolic by products of said alcohol. Ta da! lol

 

[Starfox1701]

then you are re assembled from different particles, are you still you...? The matter that made you is completely replaced...

Transporters don't use different mater to put you back to geather. It converts you mater into energy, transmits that energy to the target location and then returns it to mater and then reassembles you.

 

[dinosaurJR]

Transporters don't use different mater to put you back to geather. It converts you mater into energy, transmits that energy to the target location and then returns it to mater and then reassembles you.

Ok, so technically I was a little off, but my point still holds valid. You take a brick, you crush it to dust - you make a new brick from the dust, to the exact same dimensions, no molecules were lost - is it the same brick?

Or alternatively, you have an axe, using it for years, replacing the head when it got worn, replacing the handle when it was broken, countless times, but with identical parts - is it still the same axe...?

 

[K_merse]

It's interesting that noone came up with the case of Tuvix so far. He was a completely new person, not only a clone from a transporter pattern. Still, he was forced to die to give back the life of Tuvok and Neelix.
If something, this case brings up moral questions about the transporter. And this was among the few cases when I didn't agree with the decision of the authorities (in this case, Janeway).

 

[Dan1025]

Yeah that one never sat right with me, Janeway (and the rest of the crew to be honest) really was blinded by personal feelings on that one. Tuvix was literally taken to sickbay by force in the end, I never felt right about the way that episode ended.

 

[Starfox1701]

There was no right answer there. Sombody was going to die. Question came down too who has a right to that quantum material. Janeway ultamately desided that the 2 who started with it. It was the logical desision; needs of the many and all that jazz.

 

[K_merse]

My impression was there that she decided only because of Kes. And she didn't even ask Tuvixes opinion, or the public opinion of the crew. Naturally nobody had the guts to stand up against her after she made the decision...

 

[Starfox1701]

So you think she made the wrong one? You think both Tuvok and Nelix would want to die to keep Tuvix alive? Not being mean here but if you are realy going to critice a life or death desion please back it up with why you would do it dfferently. I would like to understand your thought process.

 

[K_merse]

I'm not telling that she made the wrong decision. I don't know either, what would I decide in her place. I only have problem with the method she decided the question.
She didn't asked Tuvix, she didn't asked the crew, she didn't even allowed anyone to speak for Tuvix. She only listened to Kes and herself and then announced his decision strengthen with her captain power, so noone had the chance to contradict her - except if he dares to try his chances to spend the rest of the journey in the brig...
Tuvix was beloved by everyone in the crew but Kes who couldn't accept that Neelix and Tuvok both continued to live in him. Maybe it would have been wiser on the long run to keep Tuvix instead of the other two, maybe it would have been more beneficial for the crew - especially that Kes left about one year later...

I'm glad I didn't have to decide in that question. But if I were Janeway, I definitely would ave looked for alternative methods to get back Tuvok and Neelix (duplicating the transporter pattern, cloning, or something similar). And if I wasn't able to find any, then I would have asked the crew, what is their opinion.

 

[Starfox1701]

Unfortunatly or fortantly depending on your pov a Federaton starship is not a democracy. Personaly if I were the Captain I would not include the crew. It would be my job to make the hard calls. I don't need them feeling bad too.

Cloning would not be a solution as it is illegal in the Federation.

 

[K_merse]

I know it's illegal. And you still would have to face with the personality problem. How could you keep the personality of Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix at the same time?

 

[Starfox1701]

And you still would have to face with the personality problem. How could you keep the personality of Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix at the same time?

I'm not sure I understatnd what you mean here

 

[K_merse]

Let's say you clone Tuvix and then separate the other to Tuvok and Neelix. The clone won't have the knowledge and experiences of the original Tuvix, which means that this method would kill him as well, but we would have someone, who looks like Tuvix, without his personality.
The same problem would occur if you would keep the original Tuvix and separate the clone.

You would have to duplicate not only his body, but his knowledge and memories (technically: his personality) as well. That's the hard part...

 

[Starfox1701]

I'm not sure that is somthing Janway could have done at the time even if she were of a mind to do so. Tivok and Neelix where valuable members of the crew their was definetly time pressure there.

 

[K_merse]

Probably... But this conversation is a bit pointless as we can't change the story of the episode. Let's find some other moral question we can argue about!