Freedom in America... You Have the Right to Be???

[Syf]

I just wanted to post this story to spread some awareness about what is happening here in the USA.

A mystery man arrested on minor charges more than three weeks ago remains behind bars in Utah while law enforcement officials try to determine his true identity, which he refuses to reveal.

"This is really a strange case," said Lt. Dennis Harris with the Utah County Sheriff's Office. "He just doesn't want to be found."

The unidentified man, who has graying hair, a light beard and is believed to be in his 60's, was arrested on July 1 for trespassing in a parking garage.

He was booked into jail on three misdemeanor charges and has thwarted any chance of release, with or without bail, by refusing to identify himself.

"I've been trying to think from A to Z why he would want to stay here ... why he wouldn't give us any information," Harris said.

"He either has to be wanted by some other state or he could be on some other registry or database that has not shown up," he added.

Law enforcement officials say the man is "fairly well spoken and educated," but very guarded about his identity.

As a result of several short conversations with him, officers believe he may not be from Utah.

Officials gave the man a telephone calling card so he might contact friends or relatives, but he has not used it.

"He was very aware of what we were trying to do and he would not give us the slightest bit of information indicating where he was from or anything relating to his family situation," said Harris.

"We've had a lot of people call in but nothing has panned out. Nothing," he added.

Officials say in three weeks of jail the mystery man has shown a pleasant demeanor and has communicated that he is being treated well.

"He said the food has been great," Harris said.

"I realize that sometimes people want to go to jail because they are homeless, have nothing, they are destitute. I've seen that over the years. I just don't get the impression that's the reason. He just doesn't want to be discovered by somebody."

Now in his fourth week of incarceration, the man added another twist to the story recently by hinting he had business of some kind outside prison that he would need to attend to.

"He said there was a point at some time that he would need to get out of jail," Harris said. "That's the closest I can find of what he wants to do. And that makes no sense to me whatsoever."

Now a closer look at what has been said here...

1.) arrested on minor charges...
2.) arrested on minor charges more than three weeks ago remains behind bars
3.) remains behind bars in Utah while law enforcement officials try to determine his true identity, which he refuses to reveal.
4.) "He either has to be wanted by some other state or he could be on some other registry or database that has not shown up,"
5.) was arrested on July 1 for trespassing in a parking garage.

And a special note: This is even more Classic

1.) Law enforcement officials say the man is "fairly well spoken and educated,"
2.) Officials say in three weeks of jail the mystery man has shown a pleasant demeanor and has communicated...
3.) As a result of several short conversations with him, officers believe he may not be from Utah.

Ok, here's the breakdown...

This man, whom was arrested for being in a parking garage, had refused to identify himself, therefore was arrested. This arrest took place on July 1st... today is now July 25th... that's 25 days. The man appears to not be wanted by anyone... not the Local Authorities, and apparently, not even wanted by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, NSA, ATF, DOT, DOD, FDA, FAA, FCC, Section 7 or even Section 31... Not even wanted on any international list of wanted or otherwise "people of Interest" lists. As far as the Utah Sheriff's department can tell, not even wanted for killing Mosquitoes on the lovely, yet inter-galactic sanctioned protected earth (children's cartoon, Lilo and Stitch as reference). Who have I missed... No Agency wants this man, yet he has been held for more than 3 weeks for following what they told him. When they arrested him, they told him... "You have the right to remain silent..."

So if he is not "Wanted" for even so much as passing gas, why is he still determined "Guilty", and thus, the reasoning for imprisoning him... All this in a country that one of our constitutional laws "Innocent until proven guilty". And to add to that, last I checked, it was Federal law that a person could not be detained for more than 72 hours without charges. Sure, he was charged... for trespassing in a parking garage... what's the charge for that??? 3 weeks incarceration? Really... It was a minor charge, thus most likely a fine of what, $200? Average compensation for time served (at least in Oklahoma) is $7 per day. So that would equal to 29 days in jail. Let's see if they let him go or if this country has become what it has fight against for 235 years since we broke away from the rule of England.

If he's wanted, they should have found out he was wanted by now. Yet they hold him because as stated, "He either has to be wanted by some other state or he could be on some other registry or database", they say... Because he refuses to Identify himself, he "Must" be guilty of some gross crime... must be, right?

And about the second noted section... to put it into proper perspective... It gets a whole lot better here!

Quote, After having a few conversations with the man, they have determined the man is a educated person, thus they are sure he is not from UTAH!

 

[Hellkite]

When do I have to show police my ID?

This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.


From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop-and-identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

As of 2008, 24 states had stop-and-identify laws. Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity.

But how can you tell if an officer asking you to identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You could do this by saying "Excuse me officer. Are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.

If you're detained, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.

Keep in mind that the officer's decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. Reasonable suspicion is a vague evidentiary standard, which lends itself to mistakes on the officer's part. If you're searched or arrested following an officer's ID request, always contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.

In this case Utah has a stop-and-identify laws "Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15"
has such a law

Utah Code

Title 77

Utah Code of Criminal Procedure
Chapter 7

Arrest, by Whom, and How Made
Section 15

Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.

Enacted by Chapter 15, 1980 General Session

 

[CABAL]

With what HK has posted, I'd have to say that the Utah police have not yet overstepped their authority in this case. It's still interesting, though. I wonder what would happen if he can't be identified? Depending on how this goes, I expect Utah may introduce a law about how long somebody can be held if they can't be identified or if they don't identify themselves.

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

While I can understand the confusion in his being held. He is being treated very well. He was asked to give his identity and he refused. It is the job of the police to check the identity of individuals in their area of operations. If they are going to put him in the system they will need a name. If he has something to hide then that is enough to investigate him since he has already commited one crime.

On a side note he can tell he is in America and not a third world country like Afghanistan by how nice he is being treated. In Afghanistan, if someone ever refused to give the local police their name. They would likely be beaten or just shot for making the local police have to work and giving them an attitude.

You can say he is innocent till proven guilty but if he is truely that innocent then letting authorities run his name in a system would not be a problem. Now, that is not to say he is guilty of breaking any crimes elsewhere but he makes himself guilty of not cooperating with police. Sorry to say it but they are only doing their job to "serve and protect"...... If he wants out then all he has to do is give a name.....

 

[EAS_Intrepid]

You can choose not to give the Police your identity in Utah?

When a policeman here in Germany askes for your ID, you *must* give it to him. Though you are not forced to have your ID or passport with you, you cannot choose not to give the police the information it wants. Otherwise you can be punished by a judge.


I don't know, on the one hand, the Utah PD just did what regular German Police Forces would do as well. On the other hand: He was caught for tressprassing a Garage... He did not even steal a car or something.
Set him free, tell him to stay in the county and to report every second day to the nearest police station....

BUT: There are bureaucratic obstacles to pragmatic solutions. Mostly internal regulations...

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

Set him free, tell him to stay in the county and to report every second day to the nearest police station....

If they don't know who he is, how could they find him if he just decided to disappear? Plus, if they did just set him free and he was later found to be wanted for something serious. Alot of the same people calling for his release would then try to say the police did not do their job by releasing him. My personal view is he can sit there till he decides to tell them who he is. It is not like they are beating him or anything like that. He gets free room and board, clothes, tv.......Eventually his "important business outside" will make him tell his name.

 

[Majestic]

You can choose not to give the Police your identity in Utah?

When a policeman here in Germany askes for your ID, you *must* give it to him. Though you are not forced to have your ID or passport with you, you cannot choose not to give the police the information it wants.

It's the same here in AUS while I believe it's not illegal it's highly recommend to carry ID if you are 18 and over, and objecting/refusing to show your ID when asked can find you fined and having a nice couple of days in a cell.

If they don't know who he is, how could they find him if he just decided to disappear? Plus, if they did just set him free and he was later found to be wanted for something serious. Alot of the same people calling for his release would then try to say the police did not do their job by releasing him. My personal view is he can sit there till he decides to tell them who he is. It is not like they are beating him or anything like that. He gets free room and board, clothes, tv.......Eventually his "important business outside" will make him tell his name.

While I won't comment on US law, due to the fact I am Australian and US law does not apply to me and due to not voting in the US gives me no right to complain about it unlike here in Australia (you really should hear me lol) I must say I kind of agree with you CrazyFrog, if he isn't cooperating he shouldn't be released. The Police are just trying to protect the community and he isn't helping their jobs. A name is all that it takes and if he doesn't want to assist or cooperate the Police morally can't let him go as he could be anything from a terrorist to an axe murder.

 

[Syf]

My biggest issue with this is the fact that he is not found in any "wanted" or "Person of interest" database. FBI, CIA, NSA... I do know they have fingerprinted him and ran his prints. All crimes found to have fingerprints are in a Database (this include all unsolved crimes cases for the last 60+ years). Be it Local police, FBI, CIA, etc... No one has a record of his prints. Here a while back (a year or 2 ago), I remember there was a man that was discovered to have been the murderer of an unsolved murder case from the 70's. They (the FBI) were able to use prints found then at the crime scene to nail him 30+ years later... This man in Utah appears to not be wanted for anything. So, the only crime he committed was "trespassing" in a parking garage. Now they have his prints... they run them, and nothing... he is not a wanted man... least, not according the the FBI, CIA, etc.

Now, moving on to the USA's Constitution, they shouldn't be holding him for anything other than the charge of trespassing. As far as I can figure, if they have put him before a judge, and convicted him, then he is serving his time for walking through a garage. 25 days thus far for that crime if they have prosecuted him. But they have not. No trial, no conviction, No sentence.

The point here is, fingerprints identify a person "wanted" or "of interest", and this man's prints turned up nothing. So why the fuss? They don't need a name to convict him of the trespassing charge. Anyone taken into custody is automatically given a number. That is all they need to "label" him... That's what a name is, a label.

Basically, this is unconditional detention without trial with no intent to release, which last I checked was one of the things George Washington and everyone else fought against. This is not what they wanted. What happened to that? This is not Russia, Afghanistan, or any other country. This is the Good ol' U S of A... This is not what we do in this country.

I am a registered voter... I vote. I believe in my country for the ideals it was founded on. I believe that we are "home of the free, land of the brave". I don't agree with the Authorities. I think that they have violated what the very basis of this country is by *after checking his prints and finding nothing*, they still insist on holding him without justifiable reason. They have not convicted him yet... they are just holding him "until" they have his name.

But then again, maybe I'm the only one that has a problem with this situation. I am one that believes in prosecuting the guilty. And I believe someone (FBI, CIA, etc) would know of this guy had he committed a crime in the past. They may not have a name, but they have a biological signature. Sorry to say, but this makes no sense to me why they are detaining him. Detention without cause is wrong and no one can convince me different.

Next thing you know, they will be detaining people for what "they think" said person is going to do in the future "You sir, are going to commit murder in 25 years from now, so you are hereby under arrest now..."

Hm, I think Tom Cruise was in this movie

No offense intended to our non-US friends here. I have no intention of offending non-US citizens in any of my post.

 

[Starfox1701]

I agree taht holding him without bail is troublesome for so minor offence but how would yuo seggest they insure he show up for trile with out info on him? also ther is the problem that he now has a record in Utah but that record has no name on it because he wont id himself If he keeps this up he will endup in jail on a permanet contemp charge cause the judge won't find any hummor in this. It is trully a massive conudrum. If you where the cops would you let him out?

 

[Syf]

Ok, how to proceed....

Check his prints, DNA, Hair, etc in all Law enforcement databases. (Simply, criminals do not leave their name at a crime scene. They leave fingerprints, DNA, Hair, etc. Almost never their name... for sure not their real name. The stuff they leave behind doesn't have a "name" with it. But it is given a number). Since he is not guilty of anything else, put him before a judge in a short, orderly manor. He can be convicted without a "name". If they need one, use the "case number". I don't know how it is in some places, but here in Oklahoma, you appear before a judge, and are slapped with a fine for misdemeanors. If you can not pay that fine the same day of court and you do not have a mail address, then you can choose to serve out the fines at "X" number of days for "X" number of dollars per day. Last I checked, it was $7 a day for time served. However, in this State, they can convict you and make you serve 90 days fro trespassing, or fine you... needless to say, if the guy refuses to give his name, then he should have to serve his time to pay the fine... Simple solution really. Time served since you can't get his name and address.


Also, back on another note:
As for what if he's on a Offender's list, or on parole, etc... well, if he were a convicted offender/criminal of any kind, they would have his fingerprints in a database to use to identify him... Dang, those darn prints can be used to identify a dead person even...:Y

Nope, I think the UTAH authorities are being a bunch of Donkeys here about now. Another example of abuse of power. They have not prosecuted him even though they can.

Here's a thought... what if the guy is on a protected list because he's a witness in a federal case... perhaps jail is a safe place for him as long as they don't have a name...

 

[Majestic]

I agree on your point Syf, don't get me wrong, but it all comes back to the fact that he won't cooperate, regardless of the circumstances he is getting in the way of justice/the authorities. He refuses to cooperate, no matter what he is involved in, he is still breaking the law by no cooperating with the police.

They need his name, I think if he just gave them his name or they managed to find out his name through other means, I think he would be released. But he doesn't seem all that concerned about being released. Perhaps Utah's jail's are quite nice compared to what he is used too. Who knows. Maybe he is a few fries short of a happy meal, you know a little messed up upstairs. Only he knows the truth and I think he needs to cooperate, both sides of the argument have merit, I agree both for and against his release, I am just personally glad I am not the one with that decision.

Oh and no offence taken, we Aussies while passionate in what we believe to a point of being obsessed, are a rather laid back bunch.

 

[Syf]

Well I do admit, I don't really understand the reason for withholding his name. So, he must have a reason. It also stated the guy said he owned a business and needed to get back to it soon. I am thinking there is a motive for wanting to be held in jail to an extended day.

I am really interested in how this story plays out.

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

They can't put him in front of a judge without knowing who he is. Simply put he is in his own way of getting out. After he realizes that and finally goes in front of a judge he will probably end up with time served and be released... He only has himself to blame. If they release him without a name then many people will think the authorities have no power to enforce the most simple of laws. I find in sad that people would blast the authorities for doing their job even when they are treating the man nicely for not cooperating with them. I am sorry to say this about people from my own country but to many Americans seem to get their feeling hurt when they put themselves into a situation that they could make better just by doing what they are suppose to... and I thought I was the crazy one...

 

[thunderfoot]

Hmmm... this person was arrested by the police for trespassing. I've seen a lot of comments on what the the police are doing and why. I've seen little on what the individual in question is doing. What are his motives? What is his agenda? I can only speculate but what was written about him, he obviously knows how to secure his release, yet apparently has willfully chosen not to do so. We enjoy a great many freedoms in the USA.

One of them is the right to act as stupidly as we want to.​

This appears to be how he is behaving. If he is not a suspected criminal or person of interest, why would he subject himself to this? How much time and taxpayer's money have the police wasted already trying to determine who he is? Would not this effort have been better spent apprehending real criminals? The police in this instance are caught in a, "darned if we do or do not", moment. If they let him go and it turns out he is a serial killer or drug dealer, then they get publicly castigated for not finding out sooner. If he is innocent of everything except trespassing, the police look like bullies. It is a no win scenario for them, is it not? The police must have probable cause to apprehend someone. If this guy was indeed trespassing then they are not doing anything other than their job so far. The process has stopped at the point where he has chosen to refuse to identify himself. It is reasonable to assume the police have done everything they can to identify him and move the process forward. Unless they can access the CSI:Miami crimelab, they're stuck. Unless one has been arrested or convicted of a felony, one's information will not be in the NCIC database. Not being able to identify him from a background check merely means he has no prior felony arrests or convictions. It is also reasonable to assume he knows what he is doing and has some sort of plan or agenda. If this is to make the police look bad, it is apparently working very well. So my questions in this case would be:

Why does he need my help with something he's already doing so well at?

Why should I really care about him at all?

Has anyone considered how the police officers think or feel about this?

 

[dinosaurJR]

If it were me, I would release him then have him followed, real circumspect like.

Then you would know where he went and what he did after you released him... This plan has two goals...

1) Ensure he is not in fact some raving foaming spree killer maniac axe murderer (there would be police following - discretely - and hopefully able to stop him should he do anything illegal)

2) Find out where he lives / who he knows / where he goes / what he does (thus bringing you one step closer to his identity)

I think this is the only way to proceed...

 

[Syf]

I'll never admit to being sane.

It is a citizen's duty to vote, to uphold the law, to support and protect their country and their rights. Questioning what the government and Authorities do is one of these duties. We can not allow ourselves to sit idle and turn a blind eye to things that only serve to deny us the basic freedoms.

Bringing some tidbit like this to light is not my intent to blast the law enforcement officers for doing their job. It is there for the point of questioning is this right. Is it something that violates our basic freedoms? If so, if the people decide this "has gone too far", then it will serve to encourage citizens to get off their rears and do something about it.

Simply, does it violate a person's rights? I am speaking within the Constitution of the United States of America.

How many times have rights been violated?

What if he reasoning for not saying his name is because of his beliefs?
What if he feels he is in danger and that is the best way to avoid it?
Is this Media Propaganda?
Is it Political Propaganda?
Is the "Law" stepping outside the boundaries?
Has he stated a reason for not giving them his name?
Did he give them "a name", in which they are saying his is not?

Example: They ask him his name, He gives a name, they run that name through the databases, in which there is no record of that name, so they say he is lying because it's not in the databases... Then what?

Here's a funny one... The State I was born in "lost" my records, including Birth Certificate. I have no criminal record....

Now, let's say I go to Utah, and get stopped while walking through a parking garage by a policeman. He asks for my ID. For some strange reason, I lost my wallet a few days ago. We go around and around soon about my Name... They ask where I was born, because surely, the State I was born in has a record of me. But wait, the State I was born in lost my records, and thus, I don't have records. So, they look for my criminal records. but wait, I don't have a criminal record because I didn't commit a crime. So, here I am, being detained because they can not find me in any databases. They accuse me of lying about my name and will continue to hold me until I tell them my "real" name... but I already did and they think I am lying... this situation could really be me... for real.


So, Must I be guilty of some other crime in some other State since they can not "find me", right??? am I guilty of anything??? What exactly would I be guilty of???

This crazy guy... this could inadvertently be me one day... So heck yeah, I question it...

A person should never just "accept" something like this as "that's the way it is". First, one needs the entire story. I wish I had access to ALL information... Sadly, there seems to be a big lack of information here, and not just this guy's name.

No one is born with "Papers", or "ID", or none of that... So is it a crime not to have them?

I am not questioning how he is being treated. But I am questioning the big picture. I for one, do not want to wake up one day and discover a new "law" passed that would put me in jail and deny me a fair trial.

 

[thunderfoot]

It was not my intent to stir trouble by my comments. I was trying to point out there is a really simple resolution to this mess and apparently the individual in question has chosen not to take this. For whatever reason. This is indeed his right to do so. I do not agree with it but I will do whatever I must to defend his right to do so. As I did when I volunteered to serve in the US Army.

Authority can and must be questioned at every opportunity. To ensure it acts in the common good. But we cannot simply ignore the answer or claim it to be unfair when the answer to our question is not the one we desire. The authorities in this case are also entitled to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Equal protection under the law means just that. Equal. For Authority as well ordinary citizens.

 

[Syf]

Hey Thunderfoot, There is no trouble stirred here. Don't sweat it. This is nothing more than a discussion over the story. I for one am not offended by anyone's comments thus far. I consider it healthy for people to talk about such things and share their views.

Simply, it's a crazy story, and we're all crazy. Talk about flys on poop

Just so everyone is clear, this is a discussion. If I think for one minute things are going in a bad direction I will put a notice to settle it down. If that fails, then I will lock the thread. So, nothing wrong is happening than I am currently aware of. If anyone has a problem discussing the story feel free not to read any further or post a reply.

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

The fact in the story is he does not want to give his identity. If he had only lost a wallet or had his BC lost it would be simple to look up for the authorities. Simple fact is everyone whom is legally allowed to work in the United States has a Social Security Number, green card, or some other specific number assigned to them.

Now I would question this story if he was being mistreated but as it reads seems he only wanted a vacation at the taxpayers expense. He obviously has a hidden agenda. I will admit it is a truely unique way to try to beat the system.

 

[CrazyFrog1903]

Here is an update on the story:

Spoiler: Story

SALT LAKE CITY — Police in Utah identified a mystery man who was arrested on minor charges and sat in a jail under the name "John Doe" for over three weeks because he would not reveal his true identity.

A call from a family member resulted in the identification of Philip Todd Beavers, 60, from Farmington, N.M., Utah County sheriff's spokesman Lieutenant Dennis Harris said Tuesday.

The family member identified Beavers, who left his home town on June 24, after seeing the photo Utah police distributed to the media in an attempt to identify their mystery man.

Beavers, who will not say why he refused to identify himself, had lost his job and taken a bus to Salt Lake City, Harris said.

He was arrested on July 1 by police in Provo, about 40 miles south of Salt Lake City, after he was accused of trespassing in a parking garage.

In addition to trespassing, he was also charged with failure to give information to a police officer and interfering with an investigation, all misdemeanor counts.

Beavers has maintained a pleasant demeanor while behind bars but his refusal to reveal his name prevented his release from the Utah County jail, Harris said, and sheriff's deputies spent hours trying to identify him.

The man acknowledged his identity to police after they confronted him with his name, Harris said.

Beavers' family is assisting authorities in arranging his release on $1,200 bail, in advance of a court hearing on the misdemeanor charges, Harris said.

And it comes to an end...

 

[Syf]

Or is it...