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Federation Carrier U.S.S. Saratoga NX-92015

Kirtemor

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here is a look at the ship I am currently hung up with. She is supposed to be a federation Carrier in the line of the Typhon. But larger. Capable of manning and maintaining 60 fighters and their crew. I know she isn't much to look at now, but I have yet to begin detailing her hull and adding windows. What do you all think?
Saratoga Test 2.png Saratoga Test.png
I am looking for some feedback and critique on design and what not. :)
 
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Jetfreak

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Its definitely more conventional looking than the Typhon, you can even make out the divisions on the primary and secondary hull. The Nacelles could use some work though, as they look too TOS to be honest.

My main irk with the Typhon is that it looked too much of a BSG clone. So the Saratoga has some potential.
 

Aad Moerman

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The model looks to me a bit angular in shape. Is this a preliminary design?
I would like the ship to have a more smooth shape.
 

Kirtemor

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It is a perliminary design, and i am not quite happy with the nacelles either. that being said, I want a smoother look but still keep the bulk of the ship. I will coninue to post progress. :)
 

Hellkite

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This I my ideal of a super carrier.
It not boxy nor a flying brick was I was never a fan of the "tow carrier" Ideal from the Typhon .
In short I would not go that route

no offices intended

and here is my Ideal for a small fleet carrier
Ark Royal Light carrier.

ark_royal__light_carrier_by_hellkite_1-d83xj1p.png


FDshow_zpsa5482e29.png


 

kjc733

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Hellkite has the right idea here. Think about how your carrier will work. It's not just a case of throwing together a pretty (or ugly) design and saying it'll work - somehow fighters need to get in and out of it. Is it a through deck design? Are there multiple access points? Are these points separate or one large hanger? Are they forward/sideways/aft launching? Think about these points and parts of your design will fall into place.
 

Kirtemor

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THanks for the input. I have been trying to think in terms of a through deck carrier as it always made sense to me. She's not a juggernaut, but she is still large. trying to keep in mind the Fed aspects of design philosphy as well. All of this is helping lots.
 

Hellkite

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Well the Ark Royal Light carrier is not juggernaut by any means she about as along as a Sovereign class nacelle
 

Kirtemor

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That's good to know. :) Would federation fighters (valkyrie class) or others need a kind of maglev catapult system like what is used on modern carriers? just to get the fighters and what not up to speed or is this system redundant with federation craft. not a luanch tube like in BSG, just something to aid in acceleration?
:)
 

Hellkite

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No why would they.
 

OpetJa

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Little off topic question..How the Tyhpon model was made for Armada? From some file and than converted, from photo, or maybe something else??
 

Kirtemor

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No why would they.
I just wasn't sure of the launch acceleration fo the fighters is all. I know the modern jets use catapults get up to fight speed, i just thought some kkind of accelerator would be used to get starfighters up to combat speeds when needed. :)
 

dvatreknerd314

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Little off topic question..How the Tyhpon model was made for Armada? From some file and than converted, from photo, or maybe something else??
Which one? There was a model that was posted on FileFront that was a conversion of the Typhon and Valkyrie directly from the Star Trek Invasion disc, while the one I made and a few others are based on images and videos of the original models.
 

OpetJa

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Which one? There was a model that was posted on FileFront that was a conversion of the Typhon and Valkyrie directly from the Star Trek Invasion disc, while the one I made and a few others are based on images and videos of the original models.

Yes I'm interested in conversion...Any idea how conversion was made?? In MS3D there is option to import .TRK file from Invasion...
 

Kirtemor

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Well here are a couple more shots of the Saratoga. Let me know how the progression is going. :)
Pylon Config.png SaratogaWIP2.png
Also, Which looks better, the straight pylons or the Angled?
 

kjc733

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Angled, but I'd suggest not having the leading and trailing edge parallel, it looks too squared off. What era are you aiming at?

Because I've been bored at work I've written a small essay on considerations for carrier design.

So you’ve gone for a through deck design, that’s not a bad choice, but it’s not the only one.

In a modern Navy we see increasing use of through deck designs. It’s an efficient use of space and offers landing spots for VTOL craft. Conversely, the American super carriers have a slanted deck with a separate take off and landing area. This allows simultaneous take off and landing operations and is possible through the use of a catapult. Through deck designs (these days) don’t tend to have catapults and rely on STOVL designs and/or launch ramps – i.e. the fighter requires the length of the deck for the take off run. Which means that takeoff and landing operations cannot occur simultaneously.

But that is a water based Navy design. We’re talking futuristic space carriers and the laws of physics allow for different options.

There’s the B5 style Cobra Bay drop racks and the launch spindles of the Excalibur (which I quite like, but requires a massive ship). Or there’s the drop ramps we use in Atlantis DSV which are (I think) similar in concept to SAAB. Or there is, of course, the BSG style landing bay with separate launch catapults, a massive extension of the classic Navy carrier design. Then, of course, there is the classic hanger as used in SGA and Trek, with a large room with a single door that opens to space (and a separate maintenance facility – how else can they store so many shuttles on Voyager...). And who says fighters have to be stored internally, they could be docked on the outside (B5 again) except when maintenance is required.

So, a through deck. Not a bad choice but it does force the design somewhat. Your hull needs have a hollow tube large enough to fly a fighter through it. This allows for a “bolter” in the event of a failed landing attempt (i.e. the pilot adds power and aborts the landing), so the tube needs to be high enough to allow this, probably three or four decks worth depending on the size of the fighter. The next question is how many runways and in which direction. A runway is aligned fore-aft on a Navy carrier because of the need to get wind over the deck, the ships steams into the wind to maximise airflow across the aircraft wing during takeoff/landing. Obviously this isn’t a problem in space, but there are other considerations. Is your carrier going to be moving during launch/landing operations? If the ship itself is going into combat then the answer is probably yes – in which case landing from the side is probably not smart as the landing bay will be moving laterally relative to the pilot, which makes it harder to line up. If it’s fore-aft, relative lateral movement is minimised (assuming the carrier flies in a straight line) and the pilot just needs to make sure that they are flying faster than the carrier (assuming they’re landing from behind, taking off forwards). A fore-aft takeoff/landing makes for other complications, and that is clearance. The approach path needs to clear the nacelles and (preferably) any wake from the impulse drive.

The next question is about the fighters themselves. Are they VTOL capable? Do they need a full length “runway” or is it suitable to just have an open deck full of landing spots that they can hover over and land on. Are they going to accelerate inside the hanger or just coast until they are outside and then accelerate away. Also, what is the size of the air wing. The answers to these questions will alter the arrangement of the deck.

How many runways do you want? Do you want a single, central runway, or two (or more) parallel ones? On a fore-aft arrangement, the parallel ones could make it harder to clear the nacelles. Are the runways on the same deck – if the ship is big enough they could be stacked vertically. Will the runways share the same hanger space, or will they be segregated?

There is more to a carrier than just a floating runway. You need space to park fighters prior to launch, you need maintenance facilities and a means to get the fighter there, you need a dedicated command and control facility which means a decent sensor and comms array.

Parking first. It would be preferable to keep the runway clear at all times. Whilst it is possible to “store” craft on VTOL pads, it is good practice to clear the landing pads to reduce the likelihood of accidents snowballing. So dedicated aircraft stands should be beside the runways. These don’t need as much height clearance as the runway itself (assuming ground/hover taxiing is possible).

Next is maintenance. A secure and controlled area is required for maintenance of fighters, this area needs access to storage areas for large item spare parts (or possibly industrial replicators), plus the equipment needed to strip and rebuild the fighters. So gantries, cranes (antigravs) etc. A means of moving the fighter from the parking area to the maintenance area is also required. On a Navy carrier the maintenance area is on a separate deck, so a lift/elevator is needed to move the fighter down. This is not necessarily a must, they could be on the same deck. It comes down to do you want to increase the depth of the ship by a couple of decks (fighter plus clearance to work around it) or increase the width/length.

A final thought on the location of maintenance/parking/launch facilities is the amount of protection required. If there’s an accident in any one area you don’t want it to snowball into other areas. Fighters contain fuel and munitions and you don’t want a single fire to take out the whole carrier. So consider segregation, armour, positioning within the hull, vulnerability to external damage etc.

On to the support systems. The carrier will need a dedicated command and control facility for the fighters, somehow the takeoff/landing operation needs to be controlled and monitored. Ditto for flight deck movement. This means high resolution close range sensors and communications. Then there’s long range sensors, the more warning the carrier has of a threat the better chance it has of scrambling its fighters before entering combat range. Once the fighters are out they need to be controlled, again a CIC job or that of an AWACs if the operations are extended.

Finally, let’s consider the ship itself. Are we talking a battlecarrier (i.e. a battleship with aviation assets), something that is capable of dishing out damage, take a punch and still launch fighters? Because this means heavy weapon mounts, armour, shields, heavy duty engines and increases the likelihood that fighters will be launched under combat conditions – do you really want to open massive doors when there are torpedoes flying around?. Are you talking a standoff carrier (i.e. a dedicated carrier vessel like a CVN)? Because this isn’t meant to go into combat and so can get away with reduced armour and defences and minimal speed and agility, instead relying on overwhelming fighter and fleet support to keep it safe. Or are you thinking something along the lines of an escort carrier? Something fast and nimble enough to keep up with a fleet and out of the worst trouble, but with a small air wing sufficient for close range defence to supplement the capabilities of the fleet or convoy its escorting. All three have their place, all three will look very different.
 

Kirtemor

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I am aiming for a TNG style look. Perhaps something like maybe an early 25th Century look. I have read your essay an love the info you have detailed there. It has given me a lot to considder with the weapon, armor, and internal layout (If I take it that far.) I was Considering something that might need a few escort ships, much like something today's carriers require.
 

Kirtemor

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Here are a couple more updates. Were should Flight Control be located? Would it be part of CIC, set between my flight decks with windows fore and aft? Other suggestions?

Saratoga WIP.png Saratoga WIP 4.png
 

dvatreknerd314

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It could be in a random pod off of wherever. You didn't specify good suggestions after all.
 

kjc733

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That's looking much better and I think she's a nice evolution of the Typhon. Although I think you may have overdone the windows somewhat. How big is she supposed to be?

The reason I asked about time period is because of the nacelle styling. TNG had relatively flat nacelles, later on we get the nacelles with a more triangular cross-section. The Vesta and some STO ships (sorry Hellkite) goes back to more cylindrical nacelles. I actually like the general feel of your nacelles here (they remind me a little of the Serephim actually), but they're very square.

Answering your question, typically it needs to be somewhere where they can see the approaching and landing fighters. That's why the new UK carriers have two towers, the aft one is for flight ops and the forward one is for the bridge (so they can see where they're going). Previous carriers combined the two which meant there was always a compromise.

Really there are two parts to it, monitoring deck movement and organisation, and controlling the circuit pattern. On a conventional carrier or airfield they can be collocated in the tower as you can see both the deck and the approaching aircraft, but here the deck is internal so the functions would probably be separated.

The question is, do you really need eyes out in the 25th Century? There are tractor beams and transporters after all, so does the fighter even need to fly an approach? Or could it all be done with sensors on a holodeck? The possibilities boggle the mind (and I wish they'd thought about this in TNG/DS9/Voy when they used holograms so much). Actually, the use of virtual ATC towers are being experimented with today - although as a flyer the idea sends a shudder down my spine! but then aircraft today fly much slower than a futuristic fighter. The human eye only has the resolution to pick out a fighter so far, and when that fighter is doing a significant percentage of light speed for the join the naked eye becomes of questionable value. So I'd suggest that whilst you'd probably still have a window by the door as a last check, actually the ship would be loaded to the gills with sensor arrays.

Looking again, the registry looks a little crammed in, have you considered putting the number on the front of the "beak" as it seems almost perfectly sized for it?
 

Kirtemor

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It could be in a random pod off of wherever. You didn't specify good suggestions after all.

I am sorry about that, but i really wasn't sure what or where at the time.

That's looking much better and I think she's a nice evolution of the Typhon. Although I think you may have overdone the windows somewhat. How big is she supposed to be?

I am not exactly sure, as I was trying out textureing instead of trying to cut each window individually. Nice thiing about textures is that i can tile, so i can resize those as well, Once I decide how big she is, scale wise. My first thought was that she was about as tall as a galaxy class, maybe somewhat taller. I am trying somethings out.

I like the idea of having Flight Operations Command And the Ship's Bridge seperate. Flight Operations would be internal like the Saratoga's Bridge. A CIC (Command Information Center) maybe.... Take off and landing control might tatke place there or have stations near the front and rear of the ship.

Looking again, the registry looks a little crammed in, have you considered putting the number on the front of the "beak" as it seems almost perfectly sized for it?

As far as the registry Number, i am going to try that with just the "NX-" and see how that looks. I am liking the ship name on the side. So I will post the new works soon.
 

Aad Moerman

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My idea for the CIC would be above the flightdecks. Carriers in our age have the in the superstructure.
 

dvatreknerd314

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I like the new nacelles. They add a bit of a rounded look instead of almost purely boxy
 

Aad Moerman

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I like the new nacelles. I'm not sure about the main hull, I think it is to wide.
The pulsedrives are on the nacellepylons, I think they could be better placed on the main hull. It seems to me that 2 propulsion systems so close to one another is a great risk in case of damage.
 

dvatreknerd314

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Another thing I would suggest, if you're interested, is instead of just a small indentation on the corner parts, turn them into smooth curves, both where the sides of the main section meet the nose and where the sides meet the rear. I think it will give it a bit more flow.
 

Kirtemor

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Another thing I would suggest, if you're interested, is instead of just a small indentation on the corner parts, turn them into smooth curves, both where the sides of the main section meet the nose and where the sides meet the rear. I think it
will give it a bit more flow.

I will look into that. As I am looking to smooth those trantions. it may require some tweaking, but i think I can manage that. :)

The pulsedrives are on the nacellepylons, I think they could be better placed on the main hull. It seems to me that 2 propulsion systems so close to one another is a great risk in case of damage.

I have thought about that too. I thought the layout worked for Voyager, it could work here. Defenses for that area of the ship could be increased to compensate.
 
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