Defeating the Kobayashi Maru Scenario

[Andre27]

After watching the 2009 Star Trek i got thinking. Kirk defeated the scenario by cheating, but Kirk didn't have the massive advantage of Star Trek fan knowledge.

How would you defeat the Kobayashi Maru scenario in
1. Kirk's timeline
2. Kirk's 2009 alternate timeline
3. TNG timeline facing contemporary vessels
4. STO timeline facing contemporary vessels

Let's hear it.

 

[Atlantis]

1. Cheating
2. Cheating
3. Cheating
4. Cheating

The point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario is that it's not possible to win. No Win Scenario. The only way to do it is to cheat.
How would fan knowledge change that?

...unless you were in a Defiant, and then you might be able to cloak and beam the survivors out...

 

[Amateur]

Exactly. The way I see it, you have three objectives:

Defeat a superior enemy force
Whilst
Defending a non-combatant
And
Ensuring the survive of your own vessel.

Possible with a decent amount of plot armour, sure - like Atlantis says a cloaking device means you could pull everyone off the freighter and practically vanish - or a quick technobabbly handwave to create a new form of transporter, but your bog-standard Starfleet captain is being tested for his reactions rather than pass/fail. It's probably more a test of character. There will be people who condemn the freighter or their own ship to death for the sake of destroying the attackers, same as their will be people who instantly surrender rather than risk a combat scenario. Neither are exactly candidates for deep-space exploration, where the nearest allied vessel is at least an hour or three away.

As for TNG and onwards, we don't know what their scenario involves. The Klingons are allies (well, apart from in STO but I consider that a concession to gameplay more than lore), and the Romulan border is so well patrolled that any freighter attack in the area will involve three or four ships within response range. I reckon the Cardassian's once had a part due to that war they had, and I imagine the Borg have a prominent part in all 'modern' scenarios. Unless, of course, they have their own course or module for dealing with Borg attacks.

 

[Andre27]

1. Cheating
2. Cheating
3. Cheating
4. Cheating

The point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario is that it's not possible to win. No Win Scenario. The only way to do it is to cheat.
How would fan knowledge change that?

...unless you were in a Defiant, and then you might be able to cloak and beam the survivors out...

..and we have a winner with no imagination whatsoever.

There are numerous situation where ships managed to outwit their opponents. Even if the Kobayashi Maru is supposed to be a no-win situation there is no reason not to try and complete the rescue.

So original with something like "fake a message from the Klingon High Command ordering the assailants to withdraw" or create sensor ghosts from an approaching task force in order to split the attackers and complete the mission.

Vent plasma from the warp nacelles and ignite it to temporarily blind opposing sensors.

Everyone here has a couple of Star trek series experience so let's use that to come up with possible solutions to this tiny "no-win" scenario.

Use the "Picard Maneuver" or use an anti-matter spread. Use that ST experience folks.

 

[K_merse]

But the point is especially that you CAN'T win this scenario. IIRC the scenario is the following: You have to save a freighter with disabled engines (and shields as well?) encircled by three D7 or equivalent Klingon starships. You are threatened to surrender or the freighter will be destroyed.
Basic scenarios:
1. You surrender. Klingons capture you and the freighter. Or they destroy both ships -> FAIL
2. You flee. Klingons destroy the freighter -> FAIL
3. You start to fight. Klingons destroy the freighter then you. -> FAIL
The problem is that the freighter can't run and it is encircled, so you can't attack the Klingons while defending the freighter with you own ship. At least one Klingon ship always will have a clear shot on the freighter. Meanwhile, you can't lower your shields, because in this case Klingon fire would instantly kill you and the freighter.
Even if you use some kind of trick, it won't disable all three Klingon ship with one blow without destroying the freighter as well, which would be a fail once again.

 

[Andre27]

I'm not saying it's not a balancing act because clearly it is.

First thing would be to disperse the overwhelming hostile force to reduce their advantage.
With any battle it's not who has total numerical superiority, but who has local numerical superiority.

The scenario starts with 2 D7 (or contemporary counterpart) engaging the Starfleet vessel while one threatens the freighter.

- Create sensor ghosts
- release warp plasma to shut down their engines
- burst warp to kobayashi maru placing your vessel between the freighter and remaining D7
- Either bump the D7 shields or attempt to disable their weapons with a close range phaser burst.
- Extend shields around kobayashi may + reroute warp power through shields to reinforce them.
- Transport as much civilians to cargo hold/sickbay as possible before the two remaining D7's arrive.
- Run like hell.

The Kobayahi Maru may be lost along with part of the civilians, but part of the civilians were rescued and with luck good flying the rescue vessel can make a clean getaway.

Since the Kobayahi maru was destroyed the mission is a failure, but the crew did manage to rescue part of the civilians and get away.
That's rescue TNG/DS9/Voyager style

P.S. In case anyone wondered i love finding solutions for hypothetical no-win scenario's.

 

[Atlantis]

..and we have a winner with no imagination whatsoever.

Keep the sarcastic/"clever" comments to yourself, buddy.

The Kobayashi Maru would have been fixed. That was the point. There's going to be a "Games Master" controlling the scenario, and the way I see it, whatever tactic you would try to use, the "Games Master" would counter it. So no manner of smartarse ideas would work. The clue is in the "no-win" part of "no-win scenario".

There are numerous situation where ships managed to outwit their opponents.

The Kobayashi Maru is not an "outwitting a superior foe" scenario. The point of the Kobayashi Maru is to see how you deal with an impossible situation. Take the "impossible" part out, and you've just got one more standard simulator scenario, having lost it's primary purpose.

I'm not saying I wouldn't try something clever, I'm saying it wouldn't work. You're implying that something might work, but no, nothing would, short of cheating.

So no, thanks, it's not a lack of imagination. Have a think about that before judging me again.

Also, unless your name is James T. Kirk or David Forrester, you don't know that this mission is going to be the no-win scenario, so you can't prepare, and you treat it as any other mission.

 

[Amateur]

P.S. In case anyone wondered i love finding solutions for hypothetical no-win scenario's.

Me too .

I'm playing devil's advocate here. If I get a bit harsh then please be assured it was completely unintentional. Tone doesn't translate well into internetish

- Create sensor ghosts
- release warp plasma to shut down their engines
- burst warp to kobayashi maru placing your vessel between the freighter and remaining D7
- Either bump the D7 shields or attempt to disable their weapons with a close range phaser burst.
- Extend shields around kobayashi may + reroute warp power through shields to reinforce them.
- Transport as much civilians to cargo hold/sickbay as possible before the two remaining D7's arrive.
- Run like hell.

The problem is that for every time we've seen something like this work on the show, we've seen it either fail or be rejected for any number of reasons. I'm all for a good thought experiment, but it seems like a lot of the rules and equations that govern the Star Trek universe are based around a fictional, soft science narrative rather than a set of logical constants. Looking at one series alone helps (unless it's Voyager. Good series, very bad plotting) but doesn't remove any obstacle.

Now I'll grant that the creation of sensor ghosts is a good idea, especially if you can put them coming from behind or something so the majority of an attacker's weaponry is diverted. The problem, though, is that we don't know if it will work or not. What if the simulation accounts for a particularly bright captain or science officer on the Klingon ship? What if they've got brand new sensor arrays that the Federation don't know about?

If we were talking about the real world, we'd be able to plan for just about everything apart from human reaction - and even then we could make a pretty good guess. What we're dealing with is a universe built upon a series of scripts written by independent writers who are known to fudge numbers and fabricate technologies in an attempt to resolve their own plots.

If we could lay down a series concepts that either 'work' or 'do not work' then we could probably bash together a reasonable idea. But where do we draw the line? Say we cycle the phaser frequency until we find the one that matches their shields. The ability to do that is canon, 'Generations' springs instantly to mind. This is Kirk's era, so without knowledge of the Borg and their rapid adaptation there's no need to constantly cycle shield harmonics. Six or seven shots later we can go straight through their shields. Look at the design of a D7, it has a long and spindly neck. Aim for that, see if we can't tear off the command structure. Repeat as needed until victory is assured.

You mentioned the Picard manoeuvre, so let's assume that works as well. That's a D7 gone straight away. Antimatter spread blinds the other one long enough for us to beam everyone off of the freighter and make for scarper city.

We could just assume that everything work's on the show, but surely that renders everything moot? Surely the bright minds of Starfleet Command and the various divisions - who will, don't forget, eventually include Kirk, Chekhov, and Scott - have developed similar ideas and integrated them into the scenario. Plus all of those logs from captain's who have discovered little tricks. Riker learned the Picard Manoeuvre at the academy, and I don't think Starfleet Academy is the kind of place where they tell you there will be a test and then give you a solution to it.

 

[Andre27]

Keep the sarcastic/"clever" comments to yourself, buddy.

The Kobayashi Maru would have been fixed. That was the point. There's going to be a "Games Master" controlling the scenario, and the way I see it, whatever tactic you would try to use, the "Games Master" would counter it. So no manner of smartarse ideas would work. The clue is in the "no-win" part of "no-win scenario".



The Kobayashi Maru is not an "outwitting a superior foe" scenario. The point of the Kobayashi Maru is to see how you deal with an impossible situation. Take the "impossible" part out, and you've just got one more standard simulator scenario, having lost it's primary purpose.

I'm not saying I wouldn't try something clever, I'm saying it wouldn't work. You're implying that something might work, but no, nothing would, short of cheating.

So no, thanks, it's not a lack of imagination. Have a think about that before judging me again.

Also, unless your name is James T. Kirk or David Forrester, you don't know that this mission is going to be the no-win scenario, so you can't prepare, and you treat it as any other mission.

The "clever" comment was aired because you chose a "clever" response.
I realize that the whole scenario is scripted to see how to face up to impossible odds.

It's quite possible that if i were the captain of the rescue vessel and executed that plan (realize that the "kobayashi maru" was a well known scenario and every student would have brainstormed in advance on how to overcome the odds) that once the rescue vessel extended its shields around the freighter another 3 D7's or BoP would have decloaked and destroyed both.

The kobayahi Maru is IMO meant to see how crews respond in face of (near) impossible odds, but even when it is scripted against the rescue vessel this does not mean it is impossible to overcome.

The fact that you assumed that cheating was the only way royally annoyed me (i had another phrase in mind, but I'm pretty sure the word filter will not allow it)

Edit:
But let's stop bickering about this. You mentioned you would have tried something clever. How would you have handled the situation?

 

[Atlantis]

The "clever" comment was aired because you chose a "clever" response.

Where? There was no "clever" response, simply the truth. "No win" = Cheating is the only way. How is that a "clever" response?

I realize that the whole scenario is scripted to see how to face up to impossible odds.

It almost looked like you understood then, then you wrote...

The kobayahi Maru is IMO meant to see how crews respond in face of (near) impossible odds, but even when it is scripted against the rescue vessel this does not mean it is impossible to overcome.

No, it's a no win scenario. "No win" means impossible. Not "near impossible", because that would be winnable. Of course it's impossible to overcome. But "no win" is canon, he had to cheat to beat it. Only person who did. If it weren't actually impossible, others would have won, without cheating.

The fact that you assumed that cheating was the only way royally annoyed me (i had another phrase in mind, but I'm pretty sure the word filter will not allow it)

Don't care what effect it had on you.

And for the love of... IT'S A NO WIN SCENARIO. IT IS FIXED. In order to be called "no win scenario" it has to be unbeatable. So YES, the only way to win WOULD be to cheat. That's why Kirk did it. Don't you think that if anyone in the universe COULD have won the Kobayashi Maru test without cheating, it would have been Kirk?!

Any normal situation, no matter how dire, is winnable. 1 hick versus 1000 soldiers is winnable, with the right situation, technology, strategy, and luck. But this one is different. It would keep altering itself to be impossible, as it's not a test of strategy, command, etc. It's a test of character, to see how you deal with IMPOSSIBLE situations.

Why is there always someone who misses the point by half a mile?

 

[Andre27]

--Snip--

Less bickering, more describing your actions in this scenario.

I don't believe in scenario's where it is impossible to win (the infamous no-win scenario).
There are scenario's where losses are greater than the possible gain, but no scenario is without solution.

The only thing impossible are certain math equations, but there is no such thing as a tactical scenario without a solution.

Never believed that during my time in the military and i don't believe that in my line of work where crisis management is a large part of the job. As i said there are situations where the cost outweighs the gain, but there are no situations without a solution.

With that in mind a scenario can be near impossible, but never completely impossible. It's not that i did not read your comments, but i simply do not believe in the concept of a no-win scenario.

Edit: Now dazzle us with your innovative approach to solve the tactical puzzle.

 

[Atlantis]

Again, missing the point.

Kobayasho Maru is not a normal military scenario, it's not a "realistic" scenario that could take place. It's not a test of "solve this". It is a test of character. Clear?
I agree, no real scenario can be impossible, there are ways out of everything. But this scenario is not real, it's not supposed to be realistic, it's designed to be impossible. And of course it can be impossible, because any action you take, the "Games Master" can (and will) counter. Otherwise people would have won it before Kirk.

In fact, any strategy that anyone here can come up with, I can "play GM" and counter with the following:

"It was a trap. The Klingons had captured the Kobayashi Maru days earlier. The crew had already been taken away to a Klingon prison camp. The captain sent the distress call at the business end of a Klingon disruptor pistol. The Kobayashi Maru itself was lost. It's crew was lost. Whether you manage to destroy the Klingon forces in-system or not, your breach of the Neutral Zone causes a War. FAIL."

Or even... just take the final sentence of that paragraph. Breach of NZ = Fail.

Even Kirk missed the point by cheating. It's fine to not believe in a no-win scenario, but that wasn't the point of the test. How he got a commendation for it, I don't understand.

A much better, and philosophical (and less fanboy-style) thread would have been "What would you have done, when you got the distress call? Ignore it or breach the Neutral Zone?".

Edit: How can you accuse me of "bickering" (twice) when you are just as guilty of it as me?

 

[Andre27]

Again, missing the point.

Kobayasho Maru is not a normal military scenario, it's not a "realistic" scenario that could take place. It's not a test of "solve this". It is a test of character. Clear?
I agree, no real scenario can be impossible, there are ways out of everything. But this scenario is not real, it's not supposed to be realistic, it's designed to be impossible. And of course it can be impossible, because any action you take, the "Games Master" can (and will) counter. Otherwise people would have won it before Kirk.

In fact, any strategy that anyone here can come up with, I can "play GM" and counter with the following:

"It was a trap. The Klingons had captured the Kobayashi Maru days earlier. The crew had already been taken away to a Klingon prison camp. The captain sent the distress call at the business end of a Klingon disruptor pistol. The Kobayashi Maru itself was lost. It's crew was lost. Whether you manage to destroy the Klingon forces in-system or not, your breach of the Neutral Zone causes a War. FAIL."

Or even... just take the final sentence of that paragraph. Breach of NZ = Fail.

Even Kirk missed the point by cheating. It's fine to not believe in a no-win scenario, but that wasn't the point of the test. How he got a commendation for it, I don't understand.

A much better, and philosophical (and less fanboy-style) thread would have been "What would you have done, when you got the distress call? Ignore it or breach the Neutral Zone?".

Edit: How can you accuse me of "bickering" (twice) when you are just as guilty of it as me?

Going by your assumption that it is a test of character, that doesn't mean there is no solution to the problem. The test may be adaptive and create new problems depending on the chosen course of action, but that again is a puzzle with a solution.

Finding that solution and dealing with increasing lopsided odds IS the test of character AND a test of tactical prowess. Even when a chosen solution is countered by the script then a new solution is possible. I really want to put an end to the bickering here.

We disagree on the concept of a no-win situation being possible to overcome, but the question is "How to defeat the Kobayahi maru scenario" so let's end the argument here and now and proceed with possible solutions to the problem that is presented.

If you believe you will lose, then you will lose. If you believe you can win (solve the problem) then you can win even against "impossible" odds.

 

[K_merse]

The whole point of the svcenario is that whatever you do, you'll have to accept that you lost.
But let's brainstorm about your "clever" approach. Let's stick to the original scenario because it's more simple that way.
We have a Connie. They have three D7s. Two is pointing at us, one is pointing at the Kobayashi Maru. They know we are coming, so they are prepared. They obviously intercepted the distress call. So they are not just pointing at us, they are prepared. Let's add to this the firepower of the D7. Disruptor cannons on the narcelles, dual disruptor on the body and a torpedo launcher. That's only its front. And they have aft weapons as well, most notably an aft torpedo launcher, what the Connie lacks!
Now, it is clear, that if we make any hostile move, the Klingons (let's call them Hostile or H1, H2, H3) will act as well. H1 and 2 starts firing us, H3 will fire instantly on KB. So any move which doesn't disable H3 instantly means the destruction of KB. Not to mention that a hostile move in the NZ means war.
Andre falsely starts with the presumption that if he releases warp plasma, he can get rid of H1 and H2 because KB is out of their firing range. Why would it be? Especially if we're counting with torpedoes which have a very long range! So even if we disable H3 and make H1-2 unmaneuverable for a short while, they will be able to fire on KB. Or even worse, on us! And while we are fired upon, we can't extend our shields, because they would collapse. You can extend your shields only if they are not under attack.
We can't reroute warp power to shields or our warp drive will be disabled for a short while and we can't get out before our shield collapses. We can reroute weapon power to the shields, but obviously it's not the brightest idea either.
I woN't continue now.

Kobayashi Maru is an unbeatable scenario because you should have to do too many things and even things which contradict to each other (strengthen shields while keeping warpdrive up and running, making fancy stuffs with the deflector and firing weapons) at the same time.

 

[K_merse]

If you believe you will lose, then you will lose. If you believe you can win (solve the problem) then you can win even against "impossible" odds.

I'm gonna cry...
OK, so let's make it even more radical! Pick any Fed ship you want. But I give you a Sovy. You face a Borg cube, on the border of the solar system. There is no other ship in the sector, they are wiped out. There is no chance of reinforcements within 2 days. The cube is unharmed and fully operational. You have no Picard, you don't have his knowledge, or even if you do it is obsolete, you can't destroy the whole ship with one precision volley. What will you do?

 

[Andre27]

I'm gonna cry...
OK, so let's make it even more radical! Pick any Fed ship you want. But I give you a Sovy. You face a Borg cube, on the border of the solar system. There is no other ship in the sector, they are wiped out. There is no chance of reinforcements within 2 days. The cube is unharmed and fully operational. You have no Picard, you don't have his knowledge, or even if you do it is obsolete, you can't destroy the whole ship with one precision volley. What will you do?

Why not go even further lopsided and make it a connie vs a cube. This is a borg infested Kobayashi maru scenario.

No way to outrun, no way to outfight. Shields don't exist as far as the Borg are concerned.

If the connie was the only thing standing between the cube and a colony I'd probably try to evacuate as much personnel as possibly, engage the self destruct and run the thing into the cube.

If this was not an immediate threat then i'd probably hope for a nebula, asteroid field etc to play hide and seek until sufficient reinforcements arrived to destroy the cube.

Edit: with a sovereign at least you'd have modern shields, quantum torpedoes and modern phasers. Equipment designed to face up to the Borg. Tough, but with a skilled crew possible. In an extreme lopsided battle (connie vs cube) you'd either have to try and evade until reinforcements arrive or use the only option on a connie that can possibly damage/destroy an undamaged cube: self destruct and head-on coalition.

 

[thunderfoot]

"Kobiyashi Maru, This is Captain Thunderfoot of the Federation starship Jean LaFitte. Our sensors place you inside the Neutral Zone with multiple hostile contacts in close proximity. Please confirm this."

"Please! Help us! We can't escape!"

"Ops, confirm location of Kobyashi Maru."

"Sensors confirm the ship is inside the Neutral Zone."

"Kobyashi Maru, you are in restricted space and in violation of treaty with the Klingon Empire. For us to rescue you, we would also have to violate the treaty protocols and place the Federation at risk of war with the Empire. If you can make your way to this side of the boundary, we will stand by to offer aid and assistance. We cannot, I will not, place the Federation at risk of war over one freighter. We will attempt to contact the Empire via diplomatic channels to see if we can get the Klingon ships to cease fire and escort you to the boundaries of the treaty area. Failing that, we will ask they allow your escape pods to cross to our side of the border unmolested."

*****​

As a Starfleet officer, I have taken an oath to defend and protect the Federation against all enemies. I have also sworn to obey the orders of the officers appointed over me. These orders forbid me from doing things which are detrimental to the continued well being of the Federation. If I choose to only obey the orders which I agree with personally, then I should be relieved of command about a nanosecond later. I will have failed in my duty to the Federation, my shipmates, and Starfleet.

The Kobyashi Maru scenario is a test of character. This does not make it a no win scenario. Rather it makes it a test of a Captain's moral courage and integrity. I choose to do nothing at all to violate the treaty. Will I stand by and monitor the situation and attempt to do everything within the law to ameliorate the situation? Yes. Will I cross the boundary and attempt rescue? No. Unless my superiors order me to. And even then I have the right to question such an order since it is a violation of Federation law, which makes it illegal. Further, I am required by Starfleet regulations to report such an incident to the Staff Judge Advocate's Office immediately. Failure to do so makes me an accomplice.

Anyone can be a cowboy. Being a cowboy who ignores the rules when they get in the way makes for a far better story. Doesn't make the cowboy right. Nor does it mean I have to be happy about the whole thing.

 

[USS_Excalibur]

There is one method I have thought out long and hard.

1. Send a warp capable probe to scan for anti-protons or neutrinos ahead of the ship.
2. Come out of warp with torpedo bays loaded
3. Fire torpedoes at the cloaked vessels detected by the probe.
4. Transport the crew aboard
5. Warp out

 

[K_merse]

There is one method I have thought out long and hard.

1. Send a warp capable probe to scan for anti-protons or neutrinos ahead of the ship.
2. Come out of warp with torpedo bays loaded
3. Fire torpedoes at the cloaked vessels detected by the probe.
4. Transport the crew aboard
5. Warp out

Ok, but with this you'll find only the cloaked ships, and we have three others decloaked and shields up. And there is still a problem. Coming out of warp and immediately open fire is not simply the violation of the Neutral Zone, but clearly an act of war! You opened fire on three Klingon vessels who tried to help a lone Federation freighter whit damaged engine and malfunctioning navigational system...

 

[SciFiFan]

Sorry Exalibur, I am with K_merse on this one. You MAY have achieved the immediate goal but, the long term reprocussions would begin with a Klingon squadron crossing the border and eliminating perimeter stations such as K-7. That will then be followed by attacks on Federation interestss in Pi Canis and Eta Eridani. Full scale war would most undoubtedly be unavoidable.

 

[USS_Excalibur]

Sorry Exalibur, I am with K_merse on this one. You MAY have achieved the immediate goal but, the long term reprocussions would begin with a Klingon squadron crossing the border and eliminating perimeter stations such as K-7. That will then be followed by attacks on Federation interestss in Pi Canis and Eta Eridani. Full scale war would most undoubtedly be unavoidable.

Well... I guess I can't disagree with that. I was simply going along with the thinking of that time. Back then people were waiting to get a chance to kill Klingons. Later on it changed but back then in the TOS/TMP era I'm sure its a plausible solution.

 

[SciFiFan]

Well... I guess I can't disagree with that. I was simply going along with the thinking of that time. Back then people were waiting to get a chance to kill Klingons. Later on it changed but back then in the TOS/TMP era I'm sure its a plausible solution.

Back in the TOS/TMP era, I am certain that the ship commanders and even most admirals would like to fight, it is the politicians that dictate terms, even for the military. In the STO time, your solution would be lauded and you would be given a medel since the two powers are already at war.