Clash of Empires - The Older Mod Which Inspired the New

[Lord_Trekie]

Indeed I have.

Is that ? for the Dreadnaught a question as to include a Dreadnaught? Or more so which Dreadnaught? Not that there are a lot of choices in the matter... One possibility, add the Venture Galaxy Refit as the second battleship and then make the Sovereign the Dreadnaught?

 

[SaoMagnifico]

Some thoughts:

• Mirandas, Excelsiors, Centaurs, and even probably Ambassadors were said to be taken out of mothballs, not freshly commissioned. Are you planning any way to incorporate that, or is that an "artistic license" thing? (The old engine sadly does have its limitations, I know...)
• The Sovereign-class, although probably my favorite canon Trek ship, is said to have played only a minor role in the Dominion War. Will this be reflected in any way?
• Have you thought of replacing the old Curry-class with the somewhat newer Apollo-class? It could function as a sensor platform (kind of like the modern AWACS).
• I don't know how you feel personally about big Fed ships like the Excalibur fan design, but personally, I think a Starfleet ship in the role of dreadnought or heavy battleship doesn't really need to be all that big. I'm not a big Prometheus-class fan, but it might fit...? Or even upgrading the Sovereign?
• What about using the Nova-class as a frigate that could be upgraded with special weapons?
• If you're planning to include artillery or torpedo cruisers...might I suggest the New Orleans-class?

Is that ? for the Dreadnaught a question as to include a Dreadnaught? Or more so which Dreadnaught? Not that there are a lot of choices in the matter... One possibility, add the Venture Galaxy Refit as the second battleship and then make the Sovereign the Dreadnaught?

Hmm...the other thought I had was, maybe add in the New Orleans or Apollo as a heavy cruiser, bump Achilles to battleship, bump Sovereign to dreadnought. Or something like that. The Achilles I feel would be a good second battleship because it uses pulse phasers instead of the more conventional armament of the Galaxy (and Sovereign, for that matter).

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some salivating to do over the prospect of reenacting the Dominion War with some Ambassadors, Tongas, and K'rons...

 

[Majestic]

Is that ? for the Dreadnaught a question as to include a Dreadnaught? Or more so which Dreadnaught? Not that there are a lot of choices in the matter... One possibility, add the Venture Galaxy Refit as the second battleship and then make the Sovereign the Dreadnaught?

The ? means I haven't got one yet, but I can tell you that the Galaxy Venture will be an upgrade to the Galaxy using the fusion weapon and spot in the shipyard. Basically you research the upgrade and then you can upgrade all current ships and start building the upgrade. Thats what I am also doing with the Nebula. You start with a Nebula with no pods then you can upgrade to either a Phoenix Variant (enhanced sensor pod) or a Sutherland Varient (enhanced weapon pod).

I was thinking of the Excalibur class or something simular as the Dreadnaught, but dreadnaughts most likely won't be available till either the 2nd last or last release part. I feel the Sovereign should be a battleship personally.

Some thoughts:

• Mirandas, Excelsiors, Centaurs, and even probably Ambassadors were said to be taken out of mothballs, not freshly commissioned. Are you planning any way to incorporate that, or is that an "artistic license" thing? (The old engine sadly does have its limitations, I know...)

Yeah the old engine is a pain, reason Syf wants to make Red Ash an updated engine to bring new life for Armada players.

• The Sovereign-class, although probably my favorite canon Trek ship, is said to have played only a minor role in the Dominion War. Will this be reflected in any way?

Indeed it will, one won't be building many. With the awesome Patch 1.2.5 project I will be putting a build restriction on them as I will with many of the larger more powerful vessels.

• Have you thought of replacing the old Curry-class with the somewhat newer Apollo-class? It could function as a sensor platform (kind of like the modern AWACS).

Well the Curry class is the fighter carrier, plus it was seen on-screen in a episode or two so I want her in there.

• I don't know how you feel personally about big Fed ships like the Excalibur fan design, but personally, I think a Starfleet ship in the role of dreadnought or heavy battleship doesn't really need to be all that big. I'm not a big Prometheus-class fan, but it might fit...? Or even upgrading the Sovereign?

Yeah thats the one Federation ship I still need to decide on. I didn't include the Prometheus due to two reasons, the first being that it's a prototype and was nw when the Dominion war was almost half way through and secondly even with the 1.2.5 patch MVAM still hasn't been achieved effectively. But I will be adding more ships in later releases for all the races and the Prometheus may rear her head but most likely only as a heavy cruiser or support vessel.

• What about using the Nova-class as a frigate that could be upgraded with special weapons?

Well like in all my mods, they are different to stock and what many people use. I don't use frigates as others do, I use them as a cross between a scout and a destroyer. But like with the Prometheus class no doubt the Nova will make an appearence in one of the later releases.

• If you're planning to include artillery or torpedo cruisers...might I suggest the New Orleans-class?

I was never a major fan of them, they were awesome in the campaign but since this mod is multiplayer only I don't see a great deal of use for them and I am after a more fast paced game with this mod.

Hmm...the other thought I had was, maybe add in the New Orleans or Apollo as a heavy cruiser, bump Achilles to battleship, bump Sovereign to dreadnought. Or something like that. The Achilles I feel would be a good second battleship because it uses pulse phasers instead of the more conventional armament of the Galaxy (and Sovereign, for that matter).

Thanks for the suggestion but I am going to take an artistic licence here and leave the Achilles as a HC, she was originall as a support cruiser and I even considered her for a strike cruiser something that she may be moved to in a later release or before I release any of the releases.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some salivating to do over the prospect of reenacting the Dominion War with some Ambassadors, Tongas, and K'rons...

W00t I have a fan. Well I know for sure there is at least one person who will be downloading it when complete.

 

[SaoMagnifico]

Makes sense...never noticed the Curry before but there it is! And I really, really like the idea of keeping limits on the big ships, because one-ship fleets and Sovereign rushes get sooooo duuuuull. I'm really psyched for this, maybe even more than I am for YY

In my build, I've added torpedo cruisers that depart considerably from the stock artillery ships, as they are equipped with photon weaponry that costs special energy, does extra damage to stations and large targets, and has a high rate of fire, meaning they enter battle with a fusillade of torpedoes before the rate of fire drops off (usually put slower-firing standard torpedoes on the same hardpoints as well). Keeps things pretty fast-paced when you've got a ship toddling along and suddenly a Klingon bird of prey with wing-mounted launchers zips in and burst-fires twelve photon torpedoes

If you wanted to do something similar, the New Orleans and the Akira both work really well in that role. I can post screenshots if you want to see an example

 

[Majestic]

Sure post away.

 

[SaoMagnifico]

Spoiler: First screenshot

Klingon QuD-class bird of prey opens up on a Federation colony ship

Spoiler: Second screenshot

Klingon Fek'lhr-class medium cruisers engage two New Orleans-class torpedo cruisers near Chakravarthy Station

Spoiler: Third screenshot

From First Contact; Akira-class gunship, together with U.S.S. Defiant and Enterprise-E, launches a volley at the Borg Cube

Spoiler: Fourth screenshot

Doomed U.S.S. Jalisco engages a Tholian Type ONX5 torpedo ship

And all this reminds me, I really should shrink down my torpedo sprites a bit...

 

[Majestic]

Looking great Sao, they have inspired me to do some more work on Clash of Empires as over the past day or two I've been working on my TOS Re-Imagined Mod.

 

[SaoMagnifico]

I don't know if you've thought any more about those old Federation ships from the TMP/TLE eras, Maj, but I had a thought. Don't know if it'd be workable or not.

The idea I had: base a Federation "warp marker" or Starfleet Command-type station (sort of like in Fleet Ops) off the 8472 Fluidic Gate, the one that "builds" advanced 8472 bioships. Instead of having a big wormhole or rift type thing swirling around, your "wormhole" (exit point) could be a tiny little thing that blows up like a warp flash as a ship exits.

Now, as realistically speaking (Trek-style realism, that is) this wouldn't cost any dilithium or metal or anything like that, the resource used could be based on "officers" and could be used up by ships warped into the sector via the marker or station. This way, the Federation could amass a decently sized, disposable armada of old clankers like the Miranda- and Curry-class starships as quickly as they could be warped in. TNG-era ships, like the Norway-, Nebula-, and Galaxy-class, would be built at shipyards, cost a good deal, and be capable of taking a lot more punishment than that warped-in cannon fodder.

I don't know if you've thought about balance or racial strategies, but I have a few suggestions:

• Give the Dominion an early-game advantage, with short build times for their bugships and powerful weapons right from the get-go. The Alpha Quadrant races couldn't counter phased poleron beam weaponry at first, especially using their older ships.
• If you can work the physics files, it'd seem appropriate to give the Klingons fast cruisers and battleships with pretty wide turn radii. The Klingons should want to get into combat fast, but they should be loath to make it easy for cowardly commanders to turn their ships around.
• The Federation doesn't use particularly large ships. Their most powerful canon ship, the Sovereign-class, is much smaller than Romulan warbirds, the Klingon Negh'Var, or the Dominion battleship.
• The Federation wrote the book on torpedo technology. The beam weaponry of other factions may be better, but quantum torpedoes have plasma over a barrel any day of the week. Effective strategies to counter the Federation should focus on preventing those torps from crashing through your ships.
• Firing arcs are surprisingly important, especially if you're using the more intelligent physics based on A2PP. Most Federation ships have wide firing arcs in keeping with their all-around purpose (exceptions being the Defiant- and Achilles-classes), but Klingon ships can generally only fire forward (sometimes only straight forward, a la the birds of prey), Cardassian main weapons are forward-firing (though their less powerful phaser weapons can fire 360 degrees from the superstructure), and the strike-and-fade Romulans can fire ahead and back, though not so much at delivering full broadsides.
• You might have a different approach that you like better, but I always find it helpful to approach each faction as having a specific favored strategy. The Federation doesn't view its newer ships as expendable, so, they're probably going to have expensive, slow-building endgame ships with monster hitpoints and shield recharge rates. The Klingons don't like wasting ships, but they really don't like just sitting at artillery distance (which is where I think Fleet Ops gets them wrong), so, their ships might have shorter ranges but higher damage values or rate of fire for most of their weapons. The Romulans are all about the strike-and-fade, with fast-action cloaking devices, agile ships (even the big ones, like the IRW Valdore), and lots of boggling special weapons, since there's nothing like appearing out of nowhere, disabling sensors or weapons on defense platforms and escorts, destroying a mining outpost or convoy, and getting the hell out of there. Tactics for the Dominion side are a bit harder to pin down; my Cardassians like to spam to compensate for their technological disadvantage, and empirically speaking, their ship designs imply an aggressive style, favoring frontal assaults but also shrewd pragmatism, with defensive weaponry covering the rest of their vessels. The Dominion enjoy a technological advantage, but their endgame ships should probably be time- and resource-intensive to ensure continued use of bugships and bombers throughout the game. I would suppose the Breen to have slower, tougher ships bristling with armament, especially special weapons capable of disabling and destroying enemy ships and protecting the fleet, in keeping with their portrayal as isolationists. The only thing I can think of for the Son'a is that they seem to prefer attacking at great range, using artillery and long-range special weapons, sort of the antithesis of the Klingons. As for the Remans, maybe an emphasis on capturing enemy ships?

Your mileage may vary, of course, but I hope to be of some value

 

[Majestic]

Thanks Sao, seems you have put a lot of thought into this.

Honestly I haven't given coding much thought atm, been just working on models and what to include as well as working with thunderfoot on the TOS mod that we are going to release, as so far there is no complete TOS mod for A2.

What I have thought of in coding is this:

I plan:

• To have modular stations (thanks to the 1.2.5 patch by FlOps) in the form of ship yards like that Klingon yard in their mod. So a pl;ayer builds a station them researches the three seperate yards from there that way the Moniac shipyards from DS9 can become a reality.
  
• To include enhancements like the ones Fahres has released, the A2PP and Midnight to give this mod a more modern feel to it and to make it more enjoyable for all of us.

Thats all I got apart from that and the release order and a rough idea of what ships I plan to include.

If you are interested, once I get back to this you are most welcome to become a partner in this mod. Meaning if you wish I can provide you the models and a basic layout installation fully game ready and you can work on the coding side of things. From your screenshots on A2Files, you seem to have coding nailed down a lot better than I do.

 

[SaoMagnifico]

I would be happy to see what I can do! Although I should warn you in advance that I'm going to be on vacation from mid-July to mid-August, and I probably won't bring my gaming PC along. Probably won't be modding much from September to late December either, what with classes and all.

Haven't used the modular stations much but they sound like they've got a lot of potential

 

[Majestic]

Its cool, I'm in no rush, none at all.

 

[SaoMagnifico]

I'm not sure if you want to dive into "niche" roles or not, since I know you're taking more of an Age of Empires or stock-Armada II approach to Yesteryears, for example - but if you wanted a more complex sort of equation (which would admittedly take a bit more work, not least in terms of balancing), you could add in things like artillery ships, troop transports, multi-targeting gunships, torpedo cruisers, fighter carriers, fleet tenders, spaceborne sensor platforms, and/or warp interdictors.

If you decide to include the New Orleans-class, for instance, a good role for it might be as artillery ship, or as torpedo cruiser. Personally, I like the Akira-class as a torpedo cruiser. The Steamrunner-class could be used in its stock role as an artillery ship, if you so desired. I believe AoW used the Norway-class as a Federation artillery ship. Owing to the ****py quality of the stock Iwo Jima-class, it is always open to redesign if you thought it'd be a good Federation troopship, or another design could be used. The Steamrunner- or Achilles-class could both be used pretty effectively in the role, I figure. Certainly the Curry-class was designed to be a fighter carrier, and as you said, it was seen in that role in DS9. The Apollo-class, should you include it, looks the part of a sensor platform, as does the Phoenix-type of the Nebula-class. A refit of the Miranda-class to carry repair beam technology as a fleet tender might be interesting, or an entirely different class of ship. We never really saw the Federation using multi-targeting or warp-interdicting technology, at least not in the Dominion War, but if you wanted to include those somehow, they could be made to fit, I'm sure

Brief thoughts on other races: don't see Klingons caring much for artillery ships or fleet tenders, don't see Romulans employing dedicated torpedo cruisers or fighter carriers, can't imagine Cardassians coming up with the technology for spaceborne sensor platforms or warp interdictors, don't really see the Dominion being overly concerned with fleet tenders or fighter carriers (unless a Dreadnought could launch bugships...), and doubt the reclusive Breen would build troop transports or multi-targeting gunships. As for the Remans and Son'a, I'm really not sure.

Just some thoughts, YMMV

 

[Majestic]

Notification:

I have decided that due to the large amount of good quality TNG mods being produced here by many talent modders that I will be not making Clash of Empires into a mod. Instead I plan on releasing what I have done into model packs for those looking for models to mod their game but don't have MS3D/3D Max etc and/or the skills to retexture or model ships.

Whether these will be single downloads (which they most likely will be) or packs has yet to be decided. I plan on releasing all the Cardassians and Klingons I have done then I may look into some of the other species.

I feel this will be more useful to the community as he lack of good quality low poly models have become apparent when compared to the large poly ships people seem to convert from BC and SFC which cause frame rate issues.

If this disappoints anyone, I appologise but I am moving on to something new, more original and fun.