A2 Stock Mods and FO

[Adm_Z]

Great, another flopper, oh did I say that out loud?


I mean welcome newbie!!!

Is being a FlOper a bad thing?

 

[Majestic]

Is being a FlOper a bad thing?

Depends if you're one of those annoying Fanboys or not!

I can say now that you guys aren't in that group.

 

[Andre27]

Depends if you're one of those annoying Fanboys or not!

I can say now that you guys aren't in that group.

Please define "annoying Fanboy"

 

[CABAL]

Please define "annoying Fanboy"

Let's just say that there are FO players who don't think very highly of people that prefer working with stock A2.

 

[Andre27]

Let's just say that there are FO players who don't think very highly of people that prefer working with stock A2.

From what i hear that goes both ways

Either way, i have tried other mods/TC for A2, but i found either their models lacking/balance non-existent/ annoying in gameplay. Though i'd like to see certain additions/improvements in FO, the overall balance is good/ models look good and gameplay is challenging yet not annoying.

Does that qualify me as a fanboy.. who knows.

 

[CABAL]

From what i hear that goes both ways

It does go both ways, but in the beginning, everybody was excited about the FO 3.0.0 release. I don't exactly know how it started, since I was mostly on AFC at the time, but after a bit there was a small war going on in the comments sections for A2Files downloads. There were people on one side insulting mods that weren't for FO and insulting their creators for not making them for FO and the other side becoming more and more anti-Fleet Ops, which eventually led to some members boycotting FO altogether. Granted, this was a very small minority, but for quite some time that was the only contact we had with the Fleet Ops community.

Relations have improved quite a bit since then and I'm very happy that they have because the FO community has some great people.

Either way, i have tried other mods/TC for A2, but i found either their models lacking/balance non-existent/ annoying in gameplay. Though i'd like to see certain additions/improvements in FO, the overall balance is good/ models look good and gameplay is challenging yet not annoying.

Yes, a lot of the TCs have balance issues, but there hasn't really been a new TC release in several years. Still, many of them built the ground work for future ideas.

Does that qualify me as a fanboy.. who knows.

Nope, you're pretty normal. What Maj means by "FO fanboy" is those people from the A2F comments section.

 

[Adm_Z]

It does go both ways, but in the beginning, everybody was excited about the FO 3.0.0 release. I don't exactly know how it started, since I was mostly on AFC at the time, but after a bit there was a small war going on in the comments sections for A2Files downloads. There were people on one side insulting mods that weren't for FO and insulting their creators for not making them for FO and the other side becoming more and more anti-Fleet Ops, which eventually led to some members boycotting FO altogether. Granted, this was a very small minority, but for quite some time that was the only contact we had with the Fleet Ops community.

Actually, modding for FO is still a pretty small and new community. When it started all I ever saw was "Oh cool mod. Now make it for stock." or worse. Now there sure are those who are rude about mods hat aren't for FO, but generally, all I see is people who hate on FO and FO mods. The FO modding community is a rather small one and there are a lot more people who don't play FO than those that do.

My opinion anyway. It definitely goes both ways.

 

[Terra_Inc]

It does go both ways, but in the beginning, everybody was excited about the FO 3.0.0 release. I don't exactly know how it started, since I was mostly on AFC at the time, but after a bit there was a small war going on in the comments sections for A2Files downloads. There were people on one side insulting mods that weren't for FO and insulting their creators for not making them for FO and the other side becoming more and more anti-Fleet Ops, which eventually led to some members boycotting FO altogether. Granted, this was a very small minority, but for quite some time that was the only contact we had with the Fleet Ops community.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. What essentially happened is that FO people would go to A2F and complain in the comments section of files that they were for stock. Which made the FO fanbase look like a pile of fanboys who don't care for anything but FO. To be honest I didn't care a lot for FO mods because I didn't play FO at the time (and it seemed like a silly concept to me since back then pretty much every new version would break compatibility so you needed to rewrite your mods every time a new release came out), but I didn't go whining in the comments about how things are not for stock. It was just lack of respect for the work of people who were working for another game, essentially. Of course, there were also respectful and friendly FO people, but you rarely saw them because they weren't complaining all the time.

Actually, modding for FO is still a pretty small and new community. When it started all I ever saw was "Oh cool mod. Now make it for stock." or worse. Now there sure are those who are rude about mods hat aren't for FO, but generally, all I see is people who hate on FO and FO mods. The FO modding community is a rather small one and there are a lot more people who don't play FO than those that do.

Actually, I don't see much FO bashing nowadays. I think with the modding system, stock code support and soon-to-come improved file structure we'll see the FO modding community grow. (I actually though about moving Wastelands to FO a few times, but I won't do it. Too much work has already been done.)

Either way, i have tried other mods/TC for A2, but i found either their models lacking/balance non-existent/ annoying in gameplay. Though i'd like to see certain additions/improvements in FO, the overall balance is good/ models look good and gameplay is challenging yet not annoying.

Which ones did you try? Most stock mods don't have the bells and whistles of FO. Art of War is a great mod and completely different than FO (it's a real challenge trying to keep up with the awesomely deadly AI). If you're OK with older models, give Borg Incursion: Vital Responses a try. It's a very ancient mod, but very balanced. Many of the designs in BI:VR were unique and can be found retextured by Jetfreak in MSFC's download section.

TBH, I think you have to be fair and give smaller mods a try. See, not many people actually have the time to work on TCs. I certainly don't have enough time to work on Wastelands as much as I want, and that isn't even a full TC. If you want to see some of the finer work of the community, try some fullrace mods. The BSG race mod for example, or Avon's Hirogen, or Dan's Cardassian and Vulcan races.

 

[Adm_Z]

Not to perpetuate off topicness, but for wastelands, I'm pretty sure it would "mostly" work in FO now, and the next patch will revert the file structure so that you will have the ships,stations,weapons etc. folders, ever increasing the cross compatibility of stock mods.

 

[Andre27]

FO will take over the world!! <insert insane laughter>

I know one of the Borg Incursion versions was amongst the mods/TC i tested, but it wasn't for me.
Don't remember the other mods.

For A1 i used to play Millenium Project, but when i played it a few month ago when i had reinstalled A1 for a short while i didn't like it anymore. Too many defensive structures. I liked that more small vessels could be build from Starbases, but the abundant defenses ruined it for me.

With my limited amount of spare time nowadays i only play FO

 

[Terra_Inc]

Not to perpetuate off topicness, but for wastelands, I'm pretty sure it would "mostly" work in FO now, and the next patch will revert the file structure so that you will have the ships,stations,weapons etc. folders, ever increasing the cross compatibility of stock mods.

Not to go off topic even more, but is it already that far? I remember reading about a mod that enabled playing stock in FO, but I thought that was more of a "putting some stock stuff back in" thing instead of rebuilding stock on top of FO. TBH I never looked that close into it (I play stock when I want to play stock, I have over 9000 installs so it hardly matters that I add one more ). Can you just put a mod into that mod of a mod to make it work like a stock mod?

(BTW, I think it's time to split the thread )

@Andre: Heh, I know what you mean. But if you find the time, give AoW a try. The guy who made that mod used to be one of the titans of the community, one of the best modelers we ever had.

 

[Majestic]

I split the thread, I thought it was a good idea, so you guys are no longer off-topic, hows that for a turn around?

Personally I think it's a bit of a narrow stance and viewpoint if one only plays one and not the other, or slandering one and praising the other. Without A2 FO would never have existed and wouldn't be what it is today as it still runs off the original game, FO is still 90% of A2 in terms of the programming. Yes there are improvements, some that have been wanted since A1 first was released in 98/99. I have no issues with either group as I am part of both, what does peeve me off are those FO members who bag out Stock A2 and their mods and creators. Unlike FO, most A2 mods are developed by a single person and not a team, some are lucky to have 2 or 3 but 99% of A2 mods have produced by a single individual and he/she uses the resources they have. Most can't model, many can't texture and some can't do AI or sprites. But they still produce quality work.

Honestly I feel that FO isn't as balanced as some make out, it's too competitive online and many experienced members don't give the less skilled members a chance to learn. It's a guarantee that you'll lose many games but many never take the time to let you know what you're doing wrong help you out with your game or give you important tips. Even in a 1vs1 they don't. That being said there are a great many who have, Myles, 23Down and a number of others have assisted me and were kind enough to offer additional help in the future.

Don't get me wrong there are great people there, just to list a few:

• Dominus_Noctis
• Adm_Z
• Ryderstorm
• Zelph
• Mal
• Andre27
• Megadroid
• Myles
• Blade
• Ray320

There are of course many more, that's just off the top of my head. However there are many more who aren't.

My main issue are some of the forum members, who deserve the name Fanboy as they bag out anything and anyone who states something that puts FO in a negative light, puts forth a suggestion for improvement that they don't like or simply have a go at you if you're modding stock A2 over FO or that your mod isn't being made to work with the stock races of FO. A good example was in a recent post about the Miranda II and wanting it buildable as a main unit again. I voiced my passionate view that I felt it was a rip off of a classic and a unique ship should be used instead. It wasn't meant as an insult to anyone including the designer, it was just my own personal opinion, but I recall a member or two biting my head off over it, after that I decided to screw the site and not to voice my opinion much if at all. Makes you think you are not allowed to have your own opinion anymore and have to think the way everyone else does.. So much for being an individual!

It's quite sad as there are so many great members there, some of the best in the community, yet they sometimes get over shadowed by these types.

 

[Andre27]

I split the thread, I thought it was a good idea, so you guys are no longer off-topic, hows that for a turn around?

Noooooooo!!! You You horrible.. now we have to start all over again (how many split topics can we get out of the original 1?)

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

To go back to a very old tired subject, I recall when many older versions of FO came out - even past 3.0.0 - and seeing quite a few threads on A2Files, AFC, etc, decrying these versions as "Illegal Haxorzing" etc or pointing to specific models that had been "stolen". Over the years, the number of accusations and insinuations have been in very poor taste and have been perpetuated until relatively recently. In those "good old days" there was certainly a lot of back and forth between individuals from all these sites ruminating on whatever attack-of-the-day.

In the present: Lots of people don't like individual ships (or factions!), abilities, and what not: as the Feature Request/General subforum can certainly attest to . Everybody has their own ideas of what is right and wrong and sometimes it rubs particular people in the wrong way. Either way, both sides are an opinion. If you read over the balancing threads, you can see quite quickly how strongly opinionated some arguments can be. In any relatively large forum population, there will be a diverse group talking and there will be as many agreements as there are disagreements .

 

[CABAL]

decrying these versions as "Illegal Haxorzing" etc

I remember with this at least there was a legitimate question about distributing a modified engine for a game that wasn't open sourced and whether that broke intellectual property laws. That lead to the decision to host only certain FO patches on A2F for a while, but I think they later decided it was fine. Maybe one of the FF staff could clarify what the current policy is?

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

Not to go off topic even more, but is it already that far? I remember reading about a mod that enabled playing stock in FO, but I thought that was more of a "putting some stock stuff back in" thing instead of rebuilding stock on top of FO. TBH I never looked that close into it (I play stock when I want to play stock, I have over 9000 installs so it hardly matters that I add one more ). Can you just put a mod into that mod of a mod to make it work like a stock mod?

(BTW, I think it's time to split the thread )

Oh yea, and of course missed this : So going offtopic.... yup, with the next FO patch, everything in stock Armada II is compatible in FO (except for the three default names of shield SODs and the hover physics parameter... I think). The file structure has never been changed from stock actually, it's just not used by Fleet Ops - if you want to use it in 3.2.6, it won't cause any problems.

Even currently in 3.2.6, there are only a few issues of incompatibility - those are the Technology Assimilator (requires some extra lines so it doesn't crash), Planet Shields and trade menus not showing by default, Race selection SODs didn't fall back to the default SOD file if the race specific SOD file didn't exist, Shield effect scaling (reverted and configurable in next patch), Shield SOD coloring (reverted and configurable in next patch), Slow/Fast physics+infinite/finite moons game setup options (configurable in next patch).

The A2Classic Mod works just by being a standalone mod of Fleet Operations. So yup, you can chain mods together with very few problems . I generally make stock A2 mods a mod of the Classic Mod, and then everything is already set up. I personally have around 15 different stock A2 mods that work fine in Fleet Ops.

EDIT: and now just saw this

I remember with this at least there was a legitimate question about distributing a modified engine for a game that wasn't open sourced and whether that broke intellectual property laws. That lead to the decision to host only certain FO patches on A2F for a while, but I think they later decided it was fine. Maybe one of the FF staff could clarify what the current policy is?

The reason was that when Vista first came out, most Armada II copies would no longer work -> the patch project at that time added a switch in the executable so that all A2 versions running the patch project would be able to run on Vista OS. FF staff complained and Doca wrote a hook instead of modifying the executable for the next version of the patch project, and end of story. Of course, that didn't stop the rumors long before or after...

 

[Majestic]

I remember those days, I personally avoided it. I felt that since I wasn't involved it had nothing to do with me. I recall Doca Cola had talks with the A2F team and some kind of resolution was reached where it was proven that the claims being made were not true.

It's interesting to look back on it now, most if not all of the people making the claims are gone yet both FO and at least one of the A2F staff (Freyr) are still around and kicking. It's usually the way isn't it? The trouble makers come cause some trouble (Jetnova, SquireJames, Book etc) but don't stay active for long and then us regulars who have been here for years (anywhere from 1999/2001 to 2008) are still here and still going.

 

[Zelph]

I remember that, I think I'd just downloaded and installed FlOps for the first time and was tad concerned. But my main focus was SFC3 those days - still kind of is actually, I find it much easier to mod for - and I stayed out of it.

I think they're both enjoyable, although I do tad to play FlOps and the mods associated with it a bit more these days.

 

[Adm_Z]

@ Terra

Yeah, actually that mod is Blades(just registered here) Some things are not working like trade I think, but most mods should work. I know I have Thunder;s halfrace mod running perfect in widescreen, on top of a previous version of the mod.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

Trade works, just the trade menu has to be accessed by the shortcut as it was accidentally disabled.

 

[Jetfreak]

Funny how my side comment hit some nerves and created its own topic.

I still maintain that I'm a A2 purist. I take pride in my personal build. It's arguably better for my specific line of work anyway, pic making.

 

[Terra_Inc]

I remember with this at least there was a legitimate question about distributing a modified engine for a game that wasn't open sourced and whether that broke intellectual property laws. That lead to the decision to host only certain FO patches on A2F for a while, but I think they later decided it was fine. Maybe one of the FF staff could clarify what the current policy is?

Dom is right, the issue has been resolved and FO is allowed on A2F. Problem is we can't upload large files atm, so we're unable to host the newest version.

I still maintain that I'm a A2 purist. I take pride in my personal build. It's arguably better for my specific line of work anyway, pic making.

Yup, I agree. Pretty much every stock modder has his/her personal build. Some of the community's best work can be found in ships, ship packs and fullraces, which need an existing build and some work to make them fit in. Something many FO people are missing out on (obviously because they a) lack the skills to do it or b) don't want to break mp compatibility which used to be the case before the mod system).

 

[CptBenSisko]

my original mod was moved from stock quite a while ago...i very seldom play stock FO but my i use my personal mod much more...simply because it offered the weapon setups and features that i wanted.. shield only attacks for the borg..shield penetrating chroniton weapons. rapid fire phasers and torpedos...

 

[Adm_Z]

Ditto. my mods are all on FO and I rarely play stock FO anymore. (much to crisis' dismay)

 

[Styer_Crisis]

Ditto. my mods are all on FO and I rarely play stock FO anymore. (much to crisis' dismay)

The oh so sad truth

 

[Blade]

lol well i think most of the issues if not all that affect the a2 mod for fo should be fixed in the next patch so really looking forward to that, although i do mod fo my mods do tend to be based around the a2 mod that ive been working on (mainly because it more organised (odf folders) and smaller amounts of files to work with so makes a great testing ground for big projects (like the borg experience and assimilation systems i made concepts mods for)

but the good thing about a2 over fo is that a2 has a campaign were fo currently does not

 

[Freyr]

I remember with this at least there was a legitimate question about distributing a modified engine for a game that wasn't open sourced and whether that broke intellectual property laws. That lead to the decision to host only certain FO patches on A2F for a while, but I think they later decided it was fine. Maybe one of the FF staff could clarify what the current policy is?

Pretty much dead on what Dominus_Noctis said. Basically, we had a complaint from a member with quite an extensive set of proof showing that the file did break one of the file submission rules. ("We will not accept any files whose contents seem legally questionable; this includes files that embed a hacked executable") Given it was clearly breaking the rules at the time we pulled the files concerned. We don't just turn an eye to people breaking the rules; Joel and I considered that we could and would not make exceptions to the rules simply on the basis that a mod was popular.

The fleetops team came up with a number of workarounds, and we batted the problem up to the Network Administrators of the day. As Dominus_Noctis said, Doca came up with a different way of doing it that was acceptable. We actually went through some number of new designs before we came up with one that everybody concerned agreed was in line with the network rules, the Network Administrators signed off on it after some consideration of what was concerned and after some delay while a new FO install completely compatible with our rules was prepared the files went up.

As groups, the A2files staff and the Fleet Ops staff didn't have much of a problem with how things went. (well, obviously I can't speak for the fleetops team but I didn't get the sense that they took it personally) Indeed, there have been several cases like that where files have been rejected or refused and then later returned. This was simply vastly more visible. The fleetops fans really took it a lot more personally than the staff did on either side. Indeed, My main memory of the whole thing is a few threads on the fleetops forum where a number of fans declared that the we were "stupid" amongst other things, and we couldn't stop fleetops being hosted on filefront if they just uploaded it so many times we couldn't find them all. Then they posted the URL's on the forum.

I just had a MSN tab open to Charlie, who was one of the paid employees on the FileFront.com team who dealt with the main site posting URL's and he was deleting them as fast as they were uploaded, until he got fed up with the antics that were being used (along with the names we were being called) that he banned a bunch of them to deter the rest. I'm not sure if we banned everybody involved before the fleetops staff put a stop to it on their forum, but it must have been getting close. In my view, that's the reason it was so notorious.


Anyway, to answer the question; the only policy is that anything that complies with the rules is ok to host.

I remember those days, I personally avoided it. I felt that since I wasn't involved it had nothing to do with me. I recall Doca Cola had talks with the A2F team and some kind of resolution was reached where it was proven that the claims being made were not true.

It's interesting to look back on it now, most if not all of the people making the claims are gone yet both FO and at least one of the A2F staff (Freyr) are still around and kicking. It's usually the way isn't it? The trouble makers come cause some trouble (Jetnova, SquireJames, Book etc) but don't stay active for long and then us regulars who have been here for years (anywhere from 1999/2001 to 2008) are still here and still going.

Funny you know, Book was actually a site manager on A2files at one point. Quite why was something I haven't ever figured out, since i'm not actually certain he actually plays or mods the game. I still occasionally wonder what would have happened if I had have written off Squire and his mod earlier instead of kept appeasing him to try and get the mod released until he became intolerable. Jetnova still causes some hilarity, through we are getting a bit fed up with him now. The thread about him in the private staff section is now twenty three pages long after 3 years. The implausible excuses and alternate accounts he's come up with are somewhat legendary and have resulted in him being the only person to ever have been banned via the network level hardware firewall instead of just being banned through the CMS software.

 

[Majestic]

I still occasionally wonder what would have happened if I had have written off Squire and his mod earlier instead of kept appeasing him to try and get the mod released until he became intolerable. Jetnova still causes some hilarity, through we are getting a bit fed up with him now. The thread about him in the private staff section is now twenty three pages long after 3 years. The implausible excuses and alternate accounts he's come up with are somewhat legendary and have resulted in him being the only person to ever have been banned via the network level hardware firewall instead of just being banned through the CMS software.

I know what you mean, SquireJames contact one of us admins about 12 months ago trying to get back in, back in the day he seemed to be the most trouble we here at MSFC had gotten till our friend Jetnova came along, he has also broken records here, including the person with the most duplicate accounts. Just as we settle down and think he's finally gotten the message he tries again. We have a rather nicely sized thread about him too here in the staff room.

Thankfully Starblade and I notify each other of anything that happens to help the other site and the rest of the community out. In cases like these it's a must with communication to help out the entire A2 Community.